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A Jungle Problem and Possible Solution

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Ironwill

Senior Member

11-18-2012

First of all, I'm not able to get into the PBE... I wish I could, being the over analytical person that I am (hint hint RIOT). However I do jungle a lot on LIVE, and after reading Statikk's PBE changes post and many of the responses, I'm starting to see that there could be an unforeseen problem coming..... TIME.
Ok, to start off... Montgomery stated the camps starting out are LESS money than live, and in fact it is going to take LONGER to clear them. The Ambient gold system was buffed to I believe 16 gold per 10 giving everyone 18 more gold per minute in that regard. You know what, lemme try and do an outline so it builds up properly:

Changes on PBE

1- starting camps are worth slightly less gold than before(12 gold in 1 cycle)
2- everyone gets an 18 gold/minute buff (creatures/minions are reduced)
3- jungle camps have had HP/gold redistribution towards main monster and increased damage.
4- jungle camps gold rewards scale as game progresses.


Designers' Desired Expectations

A- Statikk-"Firstly, we are going to reduce the emphasis on area-of-effect damage dealers by re-balancing more of the health and damage into the large monster in each of the camps. This allows single-target damage dealers such as Gangplank to have more competitive clear times."

B- Statikk- "we’re also going to significantly increase the rewards (gold and XP) and scaling difficulty (health and damage that the monsters gain over time) of the jungle as a game progresses. This way junglers who shift their focus toward farming the jungle efficiently can acquire gold and experience faster."

C- Statikk- "To alleviate some of this early pressure, we want to make early ganking from the jungle a more difficult, conscious choice that will require constant monitoring of the risks involved. To accomplish this, we are increasing the damage dealt by jungle monsters. This means that junglers who gank early will likely be at lower health "


What We Know About LIVE

Alpha- After roughly 10 minutes into the game, varied jungle camps most likely are not available to the Jungler:
......White- Twin Golems are taken by blue AD carry each time after backing and purple TOP each time after backing and routinely taken if situation in those lanes is stable to allow.
......Black- Wraiths are taken by Mid AP carry routinely

...... Grey- After 7 minutes (Blue Golem) is sacrificed from the Jungler to AP Mid routinely

.......Tan- After 12 minutes the AD carry will most likely routinely have the Elder Lizard (Red Buff)

Bravo- After 15 minutes into the game, the jungler must abandon "efficient" jungling in order to project a protective "aura" on the map including:

......Red- Taking Oracles and counter warding common pathways and neutral ground.

......Blue- reinforcing defense as enemy pushes onto lane towers

......Green- helping to set up a group fight ( usually as initiator in current meta)

......Orange- stop everything in order to intervene and protect an escaping player from an enemy gank or pursuit.

Charlie- We all know that good junglers will pick a counter jungler if the enemy team picks a jungler that is well known to not have good sustain early on, in order to snowball the jungle situation in one team's favor.

Shangdragon's Posted Clear Times Top 3

aa- Top 3 fastest
1st Pheonix Udyr
2nd/3rd Amumu
2nd/3rd Dr. Mundo

bb- Safest.*i wonder who?
1st/2nd Fiddlesticks
1st/2nd Warwick
3rd Nunu

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Ok, now let's get into the problems which I'm pretty sure are coming. I'll do combinations of the above outline and then explain them.

Problem #1: A/aa
......Their desire to eliminate the need for AOE champions has not proven to work as of yet. As Shangdragon has shown AOE still rules in jungle clearing with some of the top guys in the current META holding the spots.

Problem #2: C/Charlie/bb

......By making the jungle harder, junglers are going to be closer to low health during their first cycle through. This will (and I guarantee it will) open up a new META for counter jungling and smothering an enemy jungler. For Example:

Amumu is going thru his first cycle in the jungle as game has started, and lil did he know.. Fiddlesticks(enemy jungle) bought a ward and placed it prestart in Red's bush. He took wolves and blue buff and went straight to Amumu's Red buff and waited. Amumu walks by and hits golems and comes back to Red at half HP and initiates on Red buff. His hp drops to about a 1/3 of max, and then all of the sudden he is silenced and drained immediately. Fiddle uses that gold to buy atleast 2 more wards and lights up Amumu's jungle for the next run in which they start ganking him nonstop.

Now granted, this probably wont happen at the Professional level as teamwork is Paramount, and jungle invasions are too risky against solid teamwork. But in all other games, expect this META to rise to popularity again. But the sad part about this "problem" is that Amumu had NO CHOICE under the new jungle. He has to risk that low health to clear the camps in order to fight the "gold" battle. If he'd left the red and recalled and bought more pots or some hp regen item, the time gone wouldve set him back even further and ruined the "efficient" clearing. And when he got back...Fiddle most likely would've taken his red buff.

Problem #3: B/3/4/All of Alpha/All of Bravo (THE PROBLEM)

Almost ALL players are greedy, it's kind of in our nature (even supports get mad if you take the kill on that ward they were attacking :P) As of now... the Jungler gives up his Redbuff half the time, his bluebuff 90% of the time, and usually has a 10% chance of seeing wraiths after 10 minutes, and about a 50% chance of getting twin golems after 10 minutes. Over time champions in each lane have been able to "justify" taking camps away from the jungle, due to the jungler's responsibility. Example:

.......Ap Mid: " Oh look Mundo is almost up top to gank their top laner, annnnnnnd....look at that! there's wraith camp up and ready....well I'll just take it since it will be back up soon enough." ---- suddenly Mundo and top realize their target recalled back so Mundo comes back into the jungle to see Mid just finishing off his wraiths clearing back in mid. Disillusioned Mundo looks where he can clear next and sees the ADC running out of the bottom of the jungle towards his lane that he pushed to the enemy tower. "Mundo swore he saw twin rock men just second ago!" Well Mundo, that's because the ADC ran back and took them because of the great gold they are putting out now.

If you thought it was bad now with laners taking camps, just you wait till the new jungle comes out and everyone knows that after 15 minutes how much EXTRA money top,mid,bot can get just by getting red/blue buffs, and taking wraiths and twin golems. This is gonna leave the Jungle with Young Lizards and the Wolf Pack. Not much of a jungle at that point. Also, at that point, the word EFFICIENT that has been used to describe the advantages of the new jungle ceases to exist.

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SOLUTION?

Ok for problem number 1: I dont know how you can fix that. AOE bruisers are always going to rule in the jungle unless they are nerfed in their AOE ( perhaps neutral monsters be assigned a buff that ignores 10 or 20% of AOE damage.) Like I said..that one is you either address the damage going to the camps or address the damage coming out of the champs.

Problem 2 Solution: I know this one may sound corny but hear it out please- At 1:54 when red/blue's have spawned your base launches a one time flare that lights up all the pathways in your team's jungle until the 3:54 minute mark, then the fog of war permanently settles. Bush contents in your jungle would still be invisible till you go in them or ward, and pre start jungle invasions by an enemy team before 1:54 would still go unseen as normal. the Middle water area would not be seen or affected in any way by this flare including dragon and baron nashor areas. This would keep all low hp jungles safe to do their first round (unless the counter jungler had placed a ward in a bush and teleported to it for the gank. This one-time flare for just 2 minutes would most likely ELIMINATE any counter jungle snowball META that might arise.

Problem 3 Solution: Problem 3 is the BIGGEST CONCERN facing jungle players, and to be honest...it has the easiest of answers. RIOT, you are dead set on this machete and multiple paths to bigger items derived from it. Well this will seal the deal to get that machete to chopping in the jungle. Simply add another passive to it that gives a number of gold per neutral monster kill Take away the gold over time from the camps so it wont entice the laners into farming both the camps and their lanes, and simply make the machete give the gold as you kill. This will encourage very FAST and very EFFICIENT farming of the jungle and keep them away from ganking as they'll be hitting as many camps as fast as they can. There are 19 neutral monsters(wraiths twice) cleared in say 2- 2.5 minutes. Lets say you gave it a passive of +5 gold per kill of a neutral monster. That would net 95 gold in that 2 min....so that would be roughly 48 gold per minute. Now that income won't be guaranteed as some camps will STILL be taken by laners later. But lets run the figures of the standard 2 GP10. That's 60 gold per minute. So put this passive in that Machete and Junglers will no longer need 2 GP10's. Congratulations RIOT, you just ended Junglers need for gold producing, potential hampering items. :P Now I did think about 5 gold being too much at the start but to be honest I think it will average out in the end due to the lack of jungle farming mid and late game. And if you still think I'm wrong about that, then simply make it say 2 gold on machete, 3 gold on next upgrade and 5 gold on the final items you build it into(just make it a global unique passive so a jungler wont stack to get more gold).

In closing, for all you players who have PBE, and can give some insight of how its working ingame..I'd love to see a reply so I can learn a lot about this new jungle. I'm so sorry it was a long post but to see the big problems you often have to look at alot of evidence. Thanks for your time guys! :P

Will


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dMaximus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Hello Will.
I will give you my impression on the new jungle. I have tested out probably at least 25 champions on the new jungle. With the same runes, and masteries. AS red, armor yellow, MR blue, and Attack quints. My path for every champ ws wolves>blue>wraiths>wolves>red. I used no leash or help of any kind for any of the champions.

What I found is that yes, the first clear is going to be difficult, and you will come out with half health for most champs around 4:00. BUT after the first clear it gets extremely easy to do consequitive clears after that. I jungled irelia and I did constant clears for 15 minutes without going back to base with over half health. Not only that but I had about 3100 gold. If you think about it, with constant clears I could get a TF by 20 minutes. So my initial feeling is that gold is not going to be a problem.

Now with your second concern. Yes, I do agree that counterjungling is going to be huge this season. I think that it is only going to be a matter of time until the player base will realise that they NEED to help their jungle out as much as possible. If that means mid needs to buy a ward and place it in the river then so be it. Bot supports might have to place wards at dragon earlier. The bottom line is that there are many "what ifs" and "could bes" but there are simple in game solutions to any of those problems. I think that a lot of uncertinty is going to provoke a lot of creativity.

An example from a PBE game I played. I jungled hecarim, and they invaded, killed 2 on our team and took blue. Well I went straight to red, My top (olaf) and mid (karthus) leashed red, wraiths, and golums for me. every time i went to wraiths my mid would throw a spell to do some damage. It took a lot more teamwork and communication to get back in the game and eventually we came back for the win. So I understand where you are coming from but I really do feel like this new jungle is for the better.


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Ironwill

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
dMaximus:
Hello Will.
I will give you my impression on the new jungle. I have tested out probably at least 25 champions on the new jungle. With the same runes, and masteries. AS red, armor yellow, MR blue, and Attack quints. My path for every champ ws wolves>blue>wraiths>wolves>red. I used no leash or help of any kind for any of the champions.

What I found is that yes, the first clear is going to be difficult, and you will come out with half health for most champs around 4:00. BUT after the first clear it gets extremely easy to do consequitive clears after that. I jungled irelia and I did constant clears for 15 minutes without going back to base with over half health. Not only that but I had about 3100 gold. If you think about it, with constant clears I could get a TF by 20 minutes. So my initial feeling is that gold is not going to be a problem.

Now with your second concern. Yes, I do agree that counterjungling is going to be huge this season. I think that it is only going to be a matter of time until the player base will realise that they NEED to help their jungle out as much as possible. If that means mid needs to buy a ward and place it in the river then so be it. Bot supports might have to place wards at dragon earlier. The bottom line is that there are many "what ifs" and "could bes" but there are simple in game solutions to any of those problems. I think that a lot of uncertinty is going to provoke a lot of creativity.

An example from a PBE game I played. I jungled hecarim, and they invaded, killed 2 on our team and took blue. Well I went straight to red, My top (olaf) and mid (karthus) leashed red, wraiths, and golums for me. every time i went to wraiths my mid would throw a spell to do some damage. It took a lot more teamwork and communication to get back in the game and eventually we came back for the win. So I understand where you are coming from but I really do feel like this new jungle is for the better.



Thanks for your reply Maximus, its always nice to hear from people who can actually compare both versions. I sure hope you're right about the player base starting to help the jungle more, but I'm not sold on it :P I can still go try to jungle a new champ on a bot game to get mechanics down and still have no one come leash for me. And we've made leashing a normal thing for 2 years now o.o

BTW I did a test on live with Skarner, no leashes and 15 minute clock mark. I did have to go back once right before the 7:00 mark to get philo stone cause no mana jungle can go solid that long without perma blue buff. Anyhow I made 3320 in 15 min. So I took off what I wouldve made with philo and brought it to 3100'ish. So from the results you gave me ....sounds like 15 min into game, its gonna be business as usual for junglers in the economic end


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dMaximus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Will do a PBE test with Skarner and post results. Did you include the starting gold amount, or gold earned after inital buy?


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Saereth

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I think they really need to dissincentivize your whole team taking the jungle for one thing. Yeah its nice for the adc and mid to keep taking your jungle but then you wind up with marginalized jungles and that just really isnt very fun. If the neutral monster's worth only went to people with smite or something like that it could work (just a rough idea of course). This would effect both sides as neither adc/mid are pulling ahead with jungle farm, the jungler can actually farm as riot is intending to have a role late game and steal leaves counter jungling as a possibility.

Not an easy solution but I honestly dont feel the changes made so far are effective at reaching the design goals set forth.


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dMaximus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

While I am at it are there any other tests you want me to do on PBE? Im only doing jungle tests today so let me know if you are curius about anything, items, champs, routes, w/e.


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Ironwill

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
dMaximus:
Will do a PBE test with Skarner and post results. Did you include the starting gold amount, or gold earned after inital buy?


Yeah I left the starting gold out of it. Had cloth armor 5 pots, then went back 30 sec before the blue repopped and got philo and booties and stayed out that till 15.

P.S. yeah was wondering what Diana can do in that jungle


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dMaximus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Irnwill:
Yeah I left the starting gold out of it. Had cloth armor 5 pots, then went back 30 sec before the blue repopped and got philo and booties and stayed out that till 15.

P.S. yeah was wondering what Diana can do in that jungle


ok, ill start machete 5 pots with skarner for 15 minutes and get philo stone. Diana is actually really good in the jungle. Check out http://www.youtube.com/user/stonewall008?feature=chclk for S3 jungle vids

[edit]

you might wanna try a less mana hungry champ, skarner is currently one of the most mana hungry champs


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Ironwill

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Saereth:
I think they really need to dissincentivize your whole team taking the jungle for one thing. Yeah its nice for the adc and mid to keep taking your jungle but then you wind up with marginalized jungles and that just really isnt very fun. If the neutral monster's worth only went to people with smite or something like that it could work (just a rough idea of course). This would effect both sides as neither adc/mid are pulling ahead with jungle farm, the jungler can actually farm as riot is intending to have a role late game and steal leaves counter jungling as a possibility.

Not an easy solution but I honestly dont feel the changes made so far are effective at reaching the design goals set forth.


I think the funniest thing I read was when Statikk replied to this dilemma and gave advice like "just go farm the lane they abandoned" or " get the camp as soon as it pops up". Nothing but love for ya Statikk but that advice isn't realistic. they don't abandon the lane they simply push it to enemy tower and run over to camp kill it then run back out. Jungler has so much to be looking for and to help in ganks and clearing and watching dragon timers that he can't always be at the camp before a lane player can. I think the gold per kill put on the machete and take the neutral monster money back down to before late game, will dissuade greedy eyes from the lanes o.o


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Saereth

Senior Member

11-18-2012

yeah that could be a good compromise. Btw I'm also on pbe all day jungling. Diana is GREAT in the new jungle, she clears fast and safe with the machette and some of the new items can allow her to be even stronger than she currently is on live.


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