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Eserine

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
KatuXiK:
This thread was honestly uninteresting.

Lore is probably only important to a small percentage of players, and while I can agree it's been somewhat bland at times, it has never been a factor in whether or not I purchase/play/enjoy a champion. In fact, most of the time I don't read a champions lore until after I purchase or play them, I'm far more interested in their gameplay than their story. Personally I think most of the lore is fine as it is.


If you acknowledge that the lore is bland and uninteresting to most readers and not worth reading until after you have purchased a champion (as an afterthought) then you actually agree with me, that is the sound of Kitae not doing her job properly.

The LoL community has been left with much less information on the champions and events occurring in the gameworld since Babaganoush departed, so understandably there isn't much emotional investment by players into the invisible and non-existent fractured non-story, especially as the spillage of rewrites into the established canon has been met with growing revulsion. Still, your brain seeks the pattern, you do read the lore, as do all of these people writing in GD recently (by no means a complete collection):

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2752118
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2813817
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2726635
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2806562
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2725007
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2805493
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2805610
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2780225

Quote:
KatuXiK:
Racism is a stupid one to tack on there, just as some people are racist, and thats all there is to it. If you think Riot should censor the things people are allowed to say, you should go hop on Obama's train (see what I did there?). Really though, I understand that some people are ridiculous and will spam things like "****ing ****ers" or "****ing ******s" in chat when they're pissed off, and that should be looked at, but if someone simply expresses that they don't like a particular group, that should be within their rights.


There is a distinction between writing "I carry negative mental associations toward Inuit people because traumatically my beloved girlfriend was once seduced away from me by an Inuit man, and therefore I am now unable to enjoy having any Inuit in my company or reminders of the Inuit culture" and writing "I dislike Eskimos because they are dirty and stupid and untrustworthy as an entire people, all of them live in igloos and get really drunk, snorting slow into their brains and they should be killed in a holocaust". This second type of speech is called Defamation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation), and it is explicitly illegal under the governing laws of the United States (the home country of Riot Games). The forums are full of an incredible amount of libelous defamation and hatespeech against ethnic groups that the moderation team purposely overlook every day [and more directly the Rioters from other departments who I cited in example during my original post]. The "some people" who you say are racist do not belong using a communication medium where they can magnify the impact of their ideas with thousands of readers because Zileas and the moderators feel like handing them a free pass (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2759607). Allowing such people to remain to leave more hateful comments only inspires the decent people to leave, and then you are left with 87 upvotes on these threads (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2526670) and automatic closure for anyone referencing ideas in discussions outside of the racial preferences of bigots.

Quote:
KatuXiK:
Neo-Nazi's... Lol. I hope you mean twelve year olds that will spam anything offensive just to get under someone's skin, clearly they've gotten under yours


Unless you (or Zileas) possess magical powers of telepathy I don't think that you actually know the intentions of people who post on the forums, but your "gut instinct" on the matter telling you that the activity of the forum posters is merely baseless provocation sadly contrasts with sociological studies by people who would seem to suggest that the ambiguity hides something else (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/07/us/white-supremacist-groups/index.html):

Quote:
Hundreds of white supremacist groups are active in the United States today and are experiencing a kind of resurgence, experts say.


As one of the news links in my first post related overt racism is measurably growing in the United States, and in Europe it is worse (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188595/Neo-Nazis-dubbed-The-Immortals-embrace-social-networks-organise-terrifying-protests-German-cities.html). These harmless twelve-year-olds you mention see something in Runeterra and the LoL community that you do not, an idealized universe crafted by the Riot design team without brown people. Racial supremacists are not uniformly men older than 30, and as Riot allows the opinions of their younger players to crystallize through unchecked glorification of ignorance, authority and credibility (http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-11-human-obedience-myth-conformity.html) will be afforded to these individuals disseminating the ideology ubiquitously, and then they will grow into adults carrying the prejudices they learned from a young age, here, across thousands of racial-purity forum threads and a whimsical fantasy game where minority groups and women physically-aged past maximum sexual attractiveness simply don't exist.

Quote:
KatuXiK:
Lastly, it's pretty clear that you are probably not a "WHALE", and you probably don't think this game is "AWESOME", so what do you care? If you're so concerned about how flawed this game is, maybe you should just take a break and play something else for a change. Might I suggest Blacklight: Retribution, Dust 514, EVE Online, or possibly WoW?


Reread the first paragraph of the Kotaku article. That is why I care. LoL carries an AWESOME potential (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=30005195#30005195) to change the way the world works, they carry all the responsibilities of any provider of mass-communicated content.


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Arby099

Senior Member

11-18-2012

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/QuoteMine (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/QuoteMine)


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
KatuXiK:
This thread was honestly uninteresting.

Lore is probably only important to a small percentage of players, and while I can agree it's been somewhat bland at times, it has never been a factor in whether or not I purchase/play/enjoy a champion. In fact, most of the time I don't read a champions lore until after I purchase or play them, I'm far more interested in their gameplay than their story. Personally I think most of the lore is fine as it is.

Racism is a stupid one to tack on there, just as some people are racist, and thats all there is to it. If you think Riot should censor the things people are allowed to say, you should go hop on Obama's train (see what I did there?). Really though, I understand that some people are ridiculous and will spam things like "****ing ****ers" or "****ing ******s" in chat when they're pissed off, and that should be looked at, but if someone simply expresses that they don't like a particular group, that should be within their rights.

Neo-Nazi's... Lol. I hope you mean twelve year olds that will spam anything offensive just to get under someone's skin, clearly they've gotten under yours.

Lastly, it's pretty clear that you are probably not a "WHALE", and you probably don't think this game is "AWESOME", so what do you care? If you're so concerned about how flawed this game is, maybe you should just take a break and play something else for a change. Might I suggest Blacklight: Retribution, Dust 514, EVE Online, or possibly WoW?



Lore is never a games only reason for liking a game unlike gameplay can sometimes be. But if you get interested in lore, new tidbits of lore can keep you interested. Its a personality type. I would be willing to bet players who like to play a team of all yordles are more appreciative of lore rather then the "spike" competitive players.


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Arby099:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/QuoteMine (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/QuoteMine)


By necessity I have not copied down full texts into the thread, I invite you to elucidate where you feel I have contextually misrepresented any position taken from the forum or the wider internet, I expect readers (the Riot members) to actually go over the source material, which is why I have linked to all of it, and can further support any passage you feel I have unfairly snipped somehow.


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EUW Pharasto

Member

11-18-2012

I upvoted your thread for the sake of discussion but after reading it carefully I have to regret it.
You're not in for a discussion. You don't criticise, you accuse. You don't interpret, you impute. You bring in your statements as facts, judge and sentence Kitae to demotion at best, dismissal at worst. Let's have one of your facts.

Quote:
The action of LoL is focused through a narrative, to allow for the playing audience to have "suspension of disbelief".
This might shock you, but it's not only Kitae who disagrees. You think Kitae misunderstands the importance of lore. I think you are the one misunderstanding. League of Legends is at best supported by a narrative, but it does not depend on it. The action of LoL, its very core element, is not about LoL's lore. You may hate Kitae for saying that, but she's right. People play this game and get addicted without giving a single thought about the lore. LoL's gameplay is most likely designed to make this happen.

Incosistencies happened long before Kitae took over. People have complained before too. You narrow it down to one person and make her responsible for everything bad that may happened or not with LoL's lore. It does no good to your argumentation. Do you care enough to think about why people accuse you of quote mining? If anyone reads about Kitae for the first time in your thread, he/she must get the impression that Kitae is at least incompetent, careless, unaware of narrative and unable to access badly written plot-line like the ones you presented. Anyone can extract these descriptions by merely reading your post, between the line implications are untouched. You paint her employment as a horrible descision made by Riot. Yet, most users are not boycotting this game. The lore department gets positive reviews and it looks like there are people agreeing with them.

If you really want to change something I suggest you to stick to arguments and substantiated critique. You can't expect anyone to show patience towards posts like yours, neither from Riot nor from us.


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King GrimPhenom

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Holy block of text batman!


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DonQuixoté

Senior Member

11-18-2012

cliffs:

OP is mad that the lore is not consistent, writes inane wall of text


compare league to a plot of a movie, LoL might be compared to an action movie since the game is relatively short and each character shares little to no history/personality aside from a few sounds during move animations. in an action movie, do you think many people are saying "hold up, that character was shot in his right arm, not his left, this movie is worthless"

if you want to argue semantics about lore, you might enjoy games such as world of warcraft, or any star wars game


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
I upvoted your thread for the sake of discussion but after reading it carefully I have to regret it.
You're not in for a discussion. You don't criticise, you accuse. You don't interpret, you impute. You bring in your statements as facts, judge and sentence Kitae to demotion at best, dismissal at worst..


I defy anyone to write a thread detailing why someone should be rightfully terminated from employment without the use of accusations of wrongdoing. Did you think I was going to paint an abstract watercolor portrait of Kitae wearing a top hat and somehow impart my ideas to her superiors through secret techniques of visual osmosis?

I have "discussed" and "criticized" my way through multiple recent champion (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2502936) lore AMA's (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2590088), the only official channel provided to me to do so (along with many other players), and nothing has altered the course of the lore's downward spiral for the very facts isolated in yet another thread (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2652320) I made that went unanswered by any Riot employee.

My "statements" are tempered by a countless number of posts addressed to Riot for the preceding months and years I have been active on the forums, not someone who just stumbled in to GD for the first time yesterday.

Three hours after I tweeted Kitae about this thread she went into the lore forums and posted this (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31556055#31556055). "Microanalyses" would not be necessary if she ever bothered to clarify her thoughts on design to players instead of forcing us to hunt for them unto the obscurest corners of the internet, yet still no refutation has been made to any of the points I have brought up to her "four lore problems", or her preference for weak television shows over things that are better written.

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:

Let's have one of your facts.
Quote:
The action of LoL is focused through a narrative, to allow for the playing audience to have "suspension of disbelief".
This might shock you, but it's not only Kitae who disagrees. You think Kitae misunderstands the importance of lore. I think you are the one misunderstanding. League of Legends is at best supported by a narrative, but it does not depend on it. The action of LoL, its very core element, is not about LoL's lore. You may hate Kitae for saying that, but she's right.


I enjoy how you declare that I am presenting my opinions as fact, and then proceed to present your own opinion as a fact. I will pretend that this was in the form of a question: "What underlies my statements about the game being dependent on lore"? As a neuroscientist I incorrectly assumed that readers would be familiar with basic principles of human psychology, such as this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_brain_interpreter). No activity is ever divorced from a narrative, further even modulating the perceptions
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) of people based on irrational or random activity, or filling in stories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation) for times when the mind is not intentionally present, such as after recovering from a period of deep coma or brain-death and then claiming that you visited a magical fairyland. I'm not aware of any logical or scientific grounding for Kitae's opinion, unless you wish to posit that playing LoL shuts down the entire left brain of its players, but I stand ready with an open mind if you know something I do not...


Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
People play this game and get addicted without giving a single thought about the lore. LoL's gameplay is most likely designed to make this happen.


People aren't even able to watch the most mundane or basic stimuli without forming a narrative about it, or shift emotions (http://discovermagazine.com/2012/brain/22-interpreter-in-your-head-spins-stories), there are deeply instinctual drives at work that Riot correctly accounted for in the original design of the game, lending itself to a coherent and logical narrative that has now been abandoned in favor of the disjointed nature of the comic book canon retcon (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=29877134#post29877134), which has never coincided functionally with the dispositional makeup of the dedicated reader (for example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krypto))

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
Incosistencies happened long before Kitae took over. People have complained before too. You narrow it down to one person and make her responsible for everything bad that may happened or not with LoL's lore.


As the leader of the lore team Kitae is responsible for the actions of the lore team in terms of what is implemented into the game. If Kitae is unable to handle such responsibilities then Kitae should not be the leader of the lore team. It is Kitae's duty to fire those who need to be fired beneath her. I have made no claim that the past lore was never complained about or never contained any errors, that is a straw man argument, however the current lore is indeed more complained about over a wider variety of dysfunctions and a much worse basis of exchange with the community, which according to the highest members of the Riot hierarchy remains a maximally important priority.

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
It does no good to your argumentation. Do you care enough to think about why people accuse you of quote mining?


I've already responded to the claim of the reader who suggested that I quote mine, and thinking back, comically, I believe I even ask in the original post for people to go through an entire lore-forum thread instead of just reading what I quoted. I am not purposely obfuscating Kitae's positions.

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
If anyone reads about Kitae for the first time in your thread, he/she must get the impression that Kitae is at least incompetent, careless, unaware of narrative and unable to access badly written plot-line like the ones you presented. Anyone can extract these descriptions by merely reading your post, between the line implications are untouched.


I'm glad that me directly accusing her of incompetence wasn't too subtle for you.

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
You paint her employment as a horrible descision made by Riot. Yet, most users are not boycotting this game. The lore department gets positive reviews and it looks like there are people agreeing with them.


A disconnect from engagement can take many forms beyond an outright boycott. Players play less or spend less than they normally would and visit other games or pursuits because LoL doesn't speak to them as being as interesting as it once promised to be, and LoL grows more slowly than it could and overcomes competitors with more difficulty, which when multiplied over millions of individuals takes on a catastrophic risk for Riot (such as had Diablo III been better made). The dissatisfied players stop bothering to write in, assuming that the leaders of the company would be reluctant in dismissing a charming Canadian woman with a self-deprecating sense of humor who had entrenched herself politically into the office no matter how awful she was at her job, whereas I hope otherwise.

Quote:
EUW Pharasto:
If you really want to change something I suggest you to stick to arguments and substantiated critique. You can't expect anyone to show patience towards posts like yours, neither from Riot nor from us.


Thanks for your thoughts (on the first recommendation I made at least).


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Eserine

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
DonQuixoté:
cliffs:

OP is mad that the lore is not consistent, writes inane wall of text


compare league to a plot of a movie, LoL might be compared to an action movie since the game is relatively short and each character shares little to no history/personality aside from a few sounds during move animations. in an action movie, do you think many people are saying "hold up, that character was shot in his right arm, not his left, this movie is worthless"

if you want to argue semantics about lore, you might enjoy games such as world of warcraft, or any star wars game


If you had actually READ the "inane wall of text" you might notice that I actually do compare the lore of LoL with an action movie, and I do indeed think that when the story is awful and the narrative becomes muddled viewers stop liking the movie. Did people like the action in the Star Wars prequels? No, the lore was bad. Did people enjoy the Matrix sequels? No, the story become convoluted and lost symbolic coherence. As a result these movies did not go on to sell a ton of DVDs, and thus the production companies ultimately suffered whereas instead they might have done much better.


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DarkRonin00

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Here comes the inevitable post