@Tryndamere @Ryze @Morello Final Pre-season Feedback

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Eserine

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by nillthium View Post
how about a tldr?
I hid that on page seven:

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Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Point 1: Lore bad- need new lore commander
Point 2: Riot shouldn't let racist people be jerks
Point 3: Not having characters with darker skin makes many players angry
Point 4: Riot shouldn't sell the privacy of their players to big companies
Point 5: Riot should not run a sweatshop


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Eserine

Senior Member

01-30-2013

I have written an examination of internal Referred Candidacy for Employment positions within Riot:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...4#post34078154

I feel that this strongly correlates with shallow storytelling or design aspects, the sensitivity to bigotry issue, and also the game's racial representation, which I began this thread with as the primary points of pre-season problems.


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Eserine

Senior Member

01-31-2013

The patch notes have come through without "Lore Project X", although I would surmise that it may be launched separately (or with the next champion) if still an ongoing pursuit by the company. Let us examine some recent comments on the subject:

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm a big fan of the TF2 interactions, and they add a lot of flavor, but the characters are caricatures - that is, they're tropes and fun personalities, but there's not lots of room for nuance. This is a great approach because TF2's action in-game doesn't give time or space for a novella - it plays to the strengths within the gameplay to deliver flavor, theme and personality. I think it's still best-in-class at this.

My response was in relation to this reality of how you can express characters in fast-moving games.
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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
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Originally Posted by Akava View Post
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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
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Originally Posted by Sageoffire View Post
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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think ti captures the lore aspect accurately, but I would argue that it does not capture the thematic or distinct personality traits of Lux, except in a very subtle way - something that's hard to deliver in our gameplay.
Newer champions like Zyra (because shes your baby) were released with a very limited amount of background.
Zyra is a plant that can think
the animals (food) were dieing off
a sorceress wandered by
some instinct compelled her to become humanoid
it worked, and she felt vulnerable,
she wants more power
it isnt your fault, but the lore is practically non existent, and what is there is pretty dull and shallow. Literally all people have to go by on these new champions is what they look like, and what they say. so its important to really nail it visually.

almost all of the appeal i have for Lux comes from the fact that she actually has lore. she has a background, AND she has a league judgement. you get to see WHY she was in the military. you get to see that she HATED the fact that she was in the military. you are told why she wants to join the league, and its really really sad ...... her own parents practically abandoned her, there is an emotional attachment that we have to her that is FAR more important than just what people see and hear when they play her in the game.

So whats wrong with subtle? Subtle is good IMO, especially for the older champions with real backgrounds and lore to accompany them, Lux included.
I think good lore does have appeal, but frankly, that's not what most people glom on to - they glom onto the personality of the character. I feel Zyra lacks heavily there which is an issue.

Psychologically speaking, subtlety can work in storytelling, but when you get 30 VO lines and 4 skills, there's not a lot of room for subtlety in the core personality because there's no way for a game like League of Legends to deliver it to you in-game, where you experience the character.
Since space is limited in game, you should focus more on the Champion pages in the client. You guys should make origin comics and place them in the Lore tab. Videos would be better, but more expensive and time consuming.

Just a thought.
Right - I'm of this mindset to, though easier said than done. The creative team is working with this in its mind, though, so we tend to agree.
I don't feel that Morello is correct in his position that deep lore cannot fit into the game (or non-clichťd champions that don't come from "Magic: The Gathering" cards, as I've argued with him directly in the past), but with a fact-hating Abecedarian as the leader of a quite badly-selected lore staff, who seemingly offers little oversight to her department and desires players to simply receive divine visions of complicated or frankly impossible lore interactions that she never plans on enumerating upon, perhaps minimalism might serve to draw attention away from the trainwreck of random lion-men filled with lite-brights or base character-features of different champions being "reimagined" into increasingly stupid scenarios or portrayals.

Here, on the other hand, is a string of posts that made feel wistfully sad:

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I'm sorry you feel that way. We see artistic updates or overhauls as ripe opportunity to not only increase fidelity but to make a theme cohesive, possibly even to re-examine a champion's theme and see if we can treat it better. This isn't just about "The bikini", this is about her as a package, as something that we can see living and breathing, as a rich component of our world. Right now I don't see that with Sejuani, but that's for multiple reasons, yes, a big reason being her visual design.

Honestly, you hit on a good point. If I was given a blank check, I'd redo Ashe and Trynd also. I'd make Ashe not dressed in a hoody, but something that makes more sense in context. We do have that option in skins though, we can make something lore related or make something like "Ashe 2.0" or whatnot based on a particular canon story line if we feel like it.

That's the tricky part with visual updates and reworks. We have to maintain what people love about that character and make them love it even more. Sometimes though it goes beyond craft and it means we have to peel back some layers to see if what we've got currently is really what we want for our game, our brand and our IP. If it's not quite fitting in, we have to re-examine. We have to be open to being iterative and bringing that character up to snuff. That might not just be fidelity, that might be theme and how the character's visuals are tied to it.

We don't want to make arbitrary design choices any more. That can happen in the past with a young game, a new IP and a high cadence. We've reached a point where "awesome" is really the only acceptable answer. We're going to try to hit that. If we fail, we're going to try again.. and again! Sejuani might be one of those times. When we can take a good hard look at what we've done and ask.. "Is this purposful and clever? Or is this arbitrary?" Currently, I do feel some of her visual design is arbitrary when you look at her whole context. We desperately want those to feel better connected. We have to try.
IronStylus regrettably has limited influence to change things by himself, and he is not a professional writer, although he is philosophically miles ahead of the lore department, which is probably why he prefers to "work with" an individual lore member on a development team when he helps to create a champion so that he can partially counteract their Kitae-quotient.

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
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Originally Posted by Ross the Red View Post
The one thing I never understood is why people question why the Freljord champs wear such light clothing. I mean, Summoner's Rift isn't the Frozen North. They're probably used to much colder, hence why Trynd is shirtless. It'd be too hot for him in whatever animal furs he'd be used to.

It's like, if I'm in the MIdwest US and I see a Canadian fellow, I don't really expect him to wear a parka, you know?

That's just me though, I guess.
Honestly, I think it's a sad excuse that players would have to get into that much subtext in order to justify what she's wearing. We should have done our jobs better on that. There should never have to be a * for why a champion is the way they are.

SEJUANI IS A COLD, POWERFUL WOMAN FROM THE FROZEN NORTH!*

*here Sejuani is sporting her "Sunny Snow Day" fur-lined bikini for those balmy Summoner's rift nights!

Sorry, I think we can't make excuses when we goof up on delivering a theme.
^ This is anti-Abecedarin. There was recently an apologia from players in the lore forum for Vi (one who began requesting a job in the lore department otherwhere in the forums soon afterwards), where they attempted to suggest that Vi would join the League because she saw Caitlyn attacking evildoers and would similarly wish to be a part of the action. This is a bad explanation because Vi is emotionally unstable (and indeed in the buddy cop moves or shows that partially seem to have inspired her, like "Lethal Weapon" or "Starsky and Hutch", or even "Assy Mcgee" the volatile and unstable member is asked to turn in their badge because their zealotry and rage is doing doing a disservice to law and order, they are not somehow promoted to National Champion status and chosen to represent the entire country). Why would Caitlyn risk having Vi become a champion when uncertain loyalties and no training at the risk of the future of every citizen under her protection? Erotic love? Blackmail? Does Piltover just allow anyone who feels like it join the league to fight for them? Perhaps they have hundreds of fanatical tax-accountant and bellhop heroes we as players never get to see (until now with Vi) because there is no process of vetting appropriate individuals to fight. This analysis is purely an academic exercise at this point of course because the entire premise of the game has been discarded by the lore team, in favor of The League simply not being part of the gameworld. Some players seemed happy that Thresh was given partial motivation to roam the mainland and attack heroes, but this actually did not incorporate the League's involvement or summoners at all, and too many questions are thus left unresolved (forever).

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
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Originally Posted by Ross the Red View Post
You don't have to apologize bro, it's fine. I'll be honest though, I always thought it was intentional since I noticed that Olaf doesn't wear pants, and he too is from a presumably chilly place. On the flip side Brand, hilariously enough, wears only pants,
RIGHT?!

And what do those buckles even do?!

ARRGG!!

My brain craves continuity and consistency!
Generally this feeds into the human desire for exploration, which Riot will not meet adequately in avoiding worldbuilding or a consistent source-environment for additions to the game, especially in "thematic mash" where Surfer Singed is equipped with a smoking bottle of suntan lotion or "Shiver me Timbers" Fiddlesticks is brought forward instead of anyone at Riot reading "A General History of the Pyrates" by Daniel Defoe for the purposes of forming an actual pirate-mage, etc.

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
...
Sejuani's character art was actually made before her story was written and solidified. The was no rhyme or reason whatsoever for us to make her in a metal bikini. We very well may have excused her base look we were 100% committed to due to production timelines by making caveats in her story.

Those were the "Looks cool, ship it." sorta days where crunch time, bandwidth, less staff and overlapping development was causing us to develop our stories and lore while the production of the asset was actually already under way and often too slammed to make minor changes. I remember being in an animation review and bringing up the fact that her shield was taking up a lot of real estate and that its symmetry was causing it to clip into the boar. This was regarded as a good point, and we all agreed that we should carve a notch into it so she could hunker down, but we actually didn't have the time to execute on it. It was no one's fault, it was just a really hectic time, and that shows.

There was no opportunity to create a compelling story to drive the character, our schedules were too crammed at that time. That's reflected pretty much everywhere in Sejuani, from concept to kit. She's pretty half baked in a number of areas, hence why she's a good place to take a chance on finishing what we feel is a little incomplete.

I appreciate how passionate you are about it, but you're making assumptions that we didn't make mistakes here and that we abide by frameworks we carefully constructed. The truth is we did make mistakes, there was no real groundwork and it shows.
It shows, in fact, throughout all the modern lore for LoL, and that is really quite regrettable. I didn't support a slower release cadence for champions or skins because frequent players are left with incredibly stale gameplay between longer patches, but I especially don't see this helping the game's storytelling with such bad reasoning and practices upheld by the lore experts of the company. I recall the landscape artist and U.S. cult-icon Bob Ross discussing during a television lesson how, when asked how long it took him to make a particular painting, him explaining that it required ten years to gather the expertise to paint a landscape properly, and then half an hour to render a master-level landscape scene with the skills he had gathered. The lore team are not like Bob Ross.

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Shall we move on then to talk about Riot allowing racist hatespeech in the forums and developers preventing fair racial representation within the game? I don't really want to. You can type "black champion" or a number of related terms into the GD search bar to scan the daily travesty

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
...
Everyone (well, most people) can agree that ice cream is awesome. But if I said "Hey! We're going for ice cream!" and we all had to settle on one flavor to give everyone, we'd probably get stuck with vanilla. Something pretty good, but it's not hitting everyone in the right sweet spot. If we're like.. "We're going to get ice cream!" and we give you the option to pick whatever, it's going to be great! We all are enjoying fundamentally the same thing, but we each have our preferred color and flavor. That's what we do when we make "everyone a champion" rather than "champions for everyone". We want you to look into a glass case of cold delicious awesome and be able to say.. "Oh! There's MY flavor of awesome!"
... not if you like chocolate though (or black forest cherry, or chocolate-peanut-butter, or many other "dark" or reddish flavors).

Instead of another lengthy outcry against obvious injustice, here is a song for people reading this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbO2_077ixs

Goodnight.


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Camen Sieder

Senior Member

01-31-2013

I quickly skimmed through half of this...

is there anything other than lore? if not who gives a ....


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Eserine

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxKillMeFirstxX View Post
I quickly skimmed through half of this...

is there anything other than lore? if not who gives a ....
There is, but if you have a specific change that YOU would particularly like to see implemented during season three this thread is open to anyone who has a suggestion of any sort, and I would be glad to talk about your ideas (if no one else does) at some point in the coming days as I check back on the thread.


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Eserine

Senior Member

02-02-2013

The Pre-season has officially ended!

To reconclude business then, this thread has been a life-preserver thrown to Riot as shark fins begin to appear on the near horizon with the news that Facebook is spearheading the launch of ten high-production games that target hardcore gamers within their userbase, as a number of other developers worldwide also begin projects better-designed to to erode Riot's international marketshare. Riot must choose whether to grab on to the advice players of this thread have attempted to give them, but in such new features as the ranked-placement division name generator or a continuing onslaught of unaddressed racism or exclusionary ethnic champion patterns I don't see any more care taken than before, and of course we have no official comments upon these issues by Riot members beyond an address to players on other subjects:

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Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
I think asking for anyone to get fired is in bad taste
...
and I find it distasteful that you smear the name of our mutual hometown by associating it with this game, "Ames".

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Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
I'm not scared to speak up about what I've done or what I believe in. I care less about what the community thinks about me and more about what's right for the community.
What noble sentiments

keep up the good job on your reworks.


This thread is concluded, history and the free market will now judge where the consciences or intellects of the developers have not, and upon this trial so turns the world.


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NA Terrorist

Member

02-27-2013

DUDE! God, i really hope you're a girl cuz if you're not...


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Vongeo

Senior Member

05-30-2013

Fire kitae Bumps and what not.

I'd post with more enthusiasm, but the sad state of kitae's insober hacking expressed has me unenthusiastic


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Maximum Hexerin

Senior Member

02-11-2014

welp


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Wolféran Maximus

Senior Member

02-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Hexerin View Post
welp
Bro you surely are bored atm.
I understand tho. LoL is down haha.