Black cleaver vs infinity edge

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Al da Bok

Senior Member

11-30-2009

I usually play twitch, and in a 5vs5 battle, my teammates usually enjoy the 5x12 armor reduction on at least 3 'enemy' champions. The spray and pray precision being what it is, it is usually difficult to land more than 5/6 shots before the opposite team starts to escape your shots. It is usually the warwicks, chogaths and yi who get the kills, and I'd rather leave the opposite team with a disadvantage on armor that my team can leverage on, than just getting 200hp more out of them.

I found that Black Cleaver was amazing during 5vs5 skirmishes, but that 1vs1 or BD situations would favour Infinity Edge; with its cold hard and immediate damage increase.


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IEatBabies

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Senior Member

11-30-2009

black cleaver gives 75 attack damage.

I Edge is for putting down squishy characters quick.

Black Cleaver is for cutting down tanks.

Both are really good items and work very well together or in conjunction with a champion that has the other.


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holySpork

Senior Member

12-01-2009

Cleaver does not really work all that well on tanks w/ over 200 armor. At the max you will take off 60 armor with the cleaver which will take thier armor from 200 down to 140 which takes thier actual reduction percentage down to 58% from 66% which is netting not even an extra 10% in damage. I know there is more to the calculations that just the percent reduction, but I'm just saying that its passive isnt as great as it seems it may be.


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Chthulu

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Senior Member

12-01-2009

I had a fantastic Armor Eating Taric game the other day, in which the Sunder Mastery (6 armor pen.) and a Brutalizer (15 armor pen.) paired with Black Cleaver (12 (x5 = 60) armor pen.) and Shatter (-30 armor in an AoE) gave me a whopping total of -111 armor after 5 attacks.

This game *does* support negative armor, too, thankfully, which equates into bonus damage.
I had a Fiddlesticks at ~ -56 armor, receiving an extra ~ 20% damage per hit.

Made Taric into quite the hard hitter, tbh.

We lost that game, due to some "extraneous circumstances" *cough someteammatesstillneededtolearntoplay cough* but it was hella fun none the less.

I solo'ed Warwick, and a rather fed one at that, both of us starting from full health, and came out quite soundly with about a quarter health.
Felt good.


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Pinith

Senior Member

12-01-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by holySpork View Post
Cleaver does not really work all that well on tanks w/ over 200 armor. At the max you will take off 60 armor with the cleaver which will take thier armor from 200 down to 140 which takes thier actual reduction percentage down to 58% from 66% which is netting not even an extra 10% in damage.
Wanted to point out this is not quite right. Armor damage reduction percentage has diminishing returns for a reason, and thats because percentages don't work the way you're implying.

Say I do 100 base damage. With 66% mitigation, I do 34 damage. With 58% mitigation, I do 42 damage. This is actually a 23.5% increase in damage.

I'm not too familiar with the exact numbers from armor->damage reduction percent, but armor reduction is much more effective against tanks than you might think just subtracting percentages.


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ERazER

Senior Member

12-02-2009

To clear up some things, here's the order of armor calculation:
1. All increases and reductions are added up.
2. Percent penetration is applied, if the target's armor is not below 0.
3. Flat amount penetration is applied, but has no effect after the target's armor is 0 or less(i.e. against 15 armor having more than 15 armor penetration is no different than having just 15).

So if you're intending to get the enemy armor below 0, both kinds of penetration are useless, since they do not have an effect after the value is 0 or lower and are applied after the reductions.

Flat penetration is better the closer to 0 the enemy effective armor becomes(but is useless after it reaches 0).
For example: 50 penetration against 50 armor increases your total damage by 50%(150/100=1.5), but 50 penetration against 150 armor increases your damage by 25%(250/200=1.25).

Percent penetration is better the higher the enemy armor is.
For example: 40% penetration against 100 armor, increases your damage by 25%(200/160=1.25), while 40% penetration against 250 armor, increases your damage by 40%(350/250=1.4)

Combining % penetration and flat penetration provides a bigger benefit than their separate multiplied benefit, so having both is very effective.

Reductions do not stack well with percent penetration, since the % penetration is applied after the flat armor reduction. for example: a black cleaver and a Last Whisper will effectively reduce the enemy armor by 40% + 36(i.e. 40% less than 60).

These things apply for magic resistance/penetration as well.


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Zac Efron

Member

12-05-2009

I play twitch usualy and I have a full runes book of all+ crit dmg equaling out to about 63% extra crit dmg with the 10% bonus from masteries included. ( im at work cant pull actual numbers) but I first get 5 avarice blades, my crit dmg bonus is so good i dont need +dmg early on. Then I get a BF sword then infinity edge... by then its 20-25 minutes in and i have 90% crit chance and deal 313% dmg off a crit. I now 3-4-5 shot people depending on the hero... tank take a couple more but meh.

My hero I combo with is Amumu. His Aoe stun with my ulti can kill the whole team in the span of the stun duration! I dont know how many penta kills i've gotten doing this.


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I8C SRS FACE

Senior Member

12-05-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameador View Post
Both do 80 dmg, but infinity's edge passive is awesome. Especially on Ashe or other chars with crit boosts.

BTW :
Black Cleaver is 80 dmg and a good armor debuff passive
Infinity Edge is 80 dmg, at least as good passive AND 20% critical.

The 20% crit is definitely worth the 1000 extra gold, especially as it comboes with the passive.

BTW, why choosing ? Get both.
Getting both is usually not an option in a higher end game. I used to get all the items I wanted every game, then my ELO got high enough that I usually run into good opposition and the games don't go beyond 45 minutes very often.

Black Cleaver is the better option on the majority of DPS heroes, IMO. Take it on Ashe over the Infinity Edge next time, you'll be surprised at the DPS boost. The armor you negate on the enemy hero helps a ton.

The biggest thing is that it's available at about 1000 gold cheaper, and is a significant boost in your damage output, meaning you can kill heroes and towers that much easier.


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