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Pickpocket - Unbalanced for melee and ranged.

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Butsuon

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Melee champions will earn considerably less gold from this just based on the fact that they're melee. Yes, it does grant more, but your chances to auto enemy champions are SIGNIFICANTLY less.

I propose Pickpocket working on abilities for melee champions only so that champions like taric, alistar, leona and nunu can benefit from this ability on occasions like disengaging and harrassing.


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BaronVonPwny

Senior Member

11-17-2012

They already benefit from it "on occasions like disengaging and harrassing." - you make it seem like they don't?
1) If they made it melee only, there would need to be a ranged effect on the mastery as well
2) If they change it so that a melee only mastery exists, I ask this: why can't they make a mastery that ranged champions benefit more from than melee? Oh wait they did.
3) Yes, it may be unbalanced slightly between them, however - melee supports, every time, are much much more naturally tankier than ranged supports. Thus sometimes it is easier to proc the effect, and they do not need just as much gold as ranged because they already have higher base stats.

(And if you think the statement that they need less gold is untrue, any support will still barely earn 400g from this mastery in a full game, which in the end amounts to almost nothing in itself.)

tl;dr
Ranged supports benefit more because they need more benefits for being squishy.


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DavidiusMaximus

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
BaronVonPwny:
They already benefit from it "on occasions like disengaging and harrassing." - you make it seem like they don't?
1) If they made it melee only, there would need to be a ranged effect on the mastery as well


Why?

Quote:

2) If they change it so that a melee only mastery exists, I ask this: why can't they make a mastery that ranged champions benefit more from than melee? Oh wait they did.




Why should they do that?


Quote:


3) Yes, it may be unbalanced slightly between them, however - melee supports, every time, are much much more naturally tankier than ranged supports. Thus sometimes it is easier to proc the effect, and they do not need just as much gold as ranged because they already have higher base stats.

(And if you think the statement that they need less gold is untrue, any support will still barely earn 400g from this mastery in a full game, which in the end amounts to almost nothing in itself.)

tl;dr
Ranged supports benefit more because they need more benefits for being squishy.


It is NEVER easier to proc the effect as melee. This is simply not true. Your argument is that a melee can engage because they are naturally tankier. Ranged don't even have to engage AND can kite if they get engaged.
On a sidenote: Ranged should get more gold in the long run because they are squishier? Wtf were you thinking.


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Muel

Junior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Butsuon:
Melee champions will earn considerably less gold from this just based on the fact that they're melee. Yes, it does grant more, but your chances to auto enemy champions are SIGNIFICANTLY less.

I propose Pickpocket working on abilities for melee champions only so that champions like taric, alistar, leona and nunu can benefit from this ability on occasions like disengaging and harrassing.


Can't possibly make it melee only ... the point of the mastery is for supports like soraka, janna, sona to gain more gold occasionally with 0 cs

it is more rewarding for ranged because it's risky for these supports to try and poke enemies with aa

on the other hand, melee tanks are usually upfront absorbing the attacks, some even with shield abilities, which allow them to aa enemies less riskier

besides, the mastery is quite deep in the utility tree that i doubt many tanks will be taking it ... in exchange for points in the defense tree


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BaronVonPwny

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Well, your argument was that they should make it melee only, which is unfair for ranged, because it is currently unfair for melee. That statement is flawed in itself for obvious reasons, it should be fair for both.
Sure, ranged can proc it more. Even twice as much more. Say a ranged champ procs it 50 times, which is 4 minutes with flawless timing every attack, so lets say that takes 8 minutes of both laning and out of lane time, a more realistic number. This will be 10 minutes of game time as purple team wont arrive to lane until 2:00 due to leashing jungle.
That is 150 gold, from 50 procs, in 10 minutes. For a melee, with 50% of that, they earn 125 gold from 25 procs. By 20 minutes of laning there is a 50 gold difference. AFter that laning ends, but of course ranged still kite and poke teams easier, but in fights melee will survive longer. So lets say after 20 minutes melees only hit 1/3 of the time that ranged do.

Ranged get 300 gold in 20 minutes, melee 250.
The next 20 minutes, ranged get another 300 and melee get 166.
So, by this random maths, ranged earn ~175 more gold than melee. Thats the cost of 1 health regeneration per second at 40 minutes into the game.

Therefore:
It does not make a difference between the two as it is so minimal.
It really does not matter.
As someone who plays Taric support a fair amount, I can honestly say I am fine with getting 2 less vision wards than a ranged support over a 40 minute game, as I will have 4x their defensive power, and more offensive power half the time.

tl;dr: It doesnt need changes because it is so trivial a difference.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-17-2012

the main problem i see with this mastery is a melee vs ranged lane.
In such a lane, the ranged champ normally harasses frequently while the melee lane does wait for the right time.

i think that the mastery has a lot of abusive cases in such lanes- It also feels that it prevents roaming, cause you don't get a chance to AA an enemy champ for some time.
=> No roaming taric.

At first, they should reduce the gold income from the mastery.
2 gold for ranged and 4 for melees.
Why? Cause it produces a lot of gold for only one skill point. Even when you don't play bad with Sona you should still get at least 1g/10 sec, and that is a lot for one skill point.

But it would still make roaming worse cause it would lose some gold.
An ammunation system (2 stacks) would help there, but that would it also make it pretty easy to use every stack in the laning phase (currently you often waste 3-10 sec cause you are not in a position to AA).

The other solution would be a 8 sec CD and 3/6 gold.
It would make the mastery more effective for roamers, cause they don't lose as much gold. It would also make it a bit easier to get every proc in the lane.


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Butsuon

Senior Member

11-17-2012

It seems some people misread and misdirected this post. I said nothing about basic attacks from ranged and melee champions changing or being removed.

"working on abilities for melee champions only "

Sorry for the confusion.


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Blackthorn

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Butsuon:
It seems some people misread and misdirected this post. I said nothing about basic attacks from ranged and melee champions changing or being removed.

"working on abilities for melee champions only "

Sorry for the confusion.


Broken suggestion as melee supports have some low cd long range poke it would just swing the balance into the tarics and nunus leave leona and blitz out and shaft the ranged supports that are always at risk of being blown up whilst harassing with aa. I think it is fine the way it is and tbh ive used it mostly on ranged supports and the gold income is subpar.


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-17-2012

I think Baron is in the right here for the most part, so I'll start from there..

Quote:
BaronVonPwny:
They already benefit from it "on occasions like disengaging and harrassing." - you make it seem like they don't?
1) If they made it melee only, there would need to be a ranged effect on the mastery as well
2) If they change it so that a melee only mastery exists, I ask this: why can't they make a mastery that ranged champions benefit more from than melee? Oh wait they did.
3) Yes, it may be unbalanced slightly between them, however - melee supports, every time, are much much more naturally tankier than ranged supports. Thus sometimes it is easier to proc the effect, and they do not need just as much gold as ranged because they already have higher base stats.

(And if you think the statement that they need less gold is untrue, any support will still barely earn 400g from this mastery in a full game, which in the end amounts to almost nothing in itself.)

tl;dr
Ranged supports benefit more because they need more benefits for being squishy.

1-2 is totally true. The point that really bothers me however is that fact that "they need more cash since they're squishier"... That is a fallacy... basically, if you make every range characters wealthier because they need to get tanky, you will end up with the ADC problem... ranged is much better than melee because the gap in stats is overwhelmed by gold... and, in the end, having a ranged AA is just that much more useful than 8 armor and 18hp...


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