[Champion Concept] Nahuatl- The Last Mangsa

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Osprii

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Alright, finished editing. Now, I tried to balance the Q and passive further (with nerfs) and I left the W the same. However, the E is more focused on being able to choose between dps and tankiness, and the R gives you the option of tanking in a fight or dealing a powerful finishing move, to fit more in the theme with Adaptation. Yeah. Thanks to Dzanio.


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Moby the White

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Wow Osprii, you really outdid yourself this time. At first I was like this is going to be utterly confusing and I am going to have to dock him points everywhere. But no I was wrong.

Lore:25/25
P: 25/25
Q: 24/25
Reason: balance
W: 24/25
Reason: balance
E: 24/25
Reason: clarity
R: 25/25

Bonus: +3

Total Lore PQWER: 150/150


Reason: I felt that the amount of work that you have put into this was truly outstanding and really showed through the concept. Although i felt that there were minor instances of wording things differently they did not effect the clarity or understanding of the meaning. Throughout you maintained a standard theme and kept everything entirely balanced imo. Your concept shines in originality and creativity. You utilized a passive that creates pros and cons for OOC and IC effects which allowed for great skillplay.
Normally I break down each spell and tell the author where they made errors but I felt that you fulfilled all of my requirements in this concept throughout with the exception of visual fluff and animation descriptions. You received 3 bonus points and a 25 in every category except for your main abilities where you were docked 2 points total for balancing I felt that some of the numbers could be tweaked a minor bit but nothing major. Also one point was taken for clarity on your E. I felt that it was overly wordy and lengthy making it hard to follow and forcing the reader to read it over several times. However, it was clear and concise enough as to the effect that I didn't dock too many points, just the length of that description made it harder to entirely grasp

normally I break every spell down, but damn you have out done yourself with the effort involved with each of them, I had a very hard time finding things to dock from you.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Glad the comments helped.

I hadn't thought about vorpal spikes, and upon thinking about it yes, you're absolutely correct, since there aren't any auto attack resets in his kit, the regen/base damage on feed is probably about right now after balancing.

As for the Armpen, the typical top laner will have about 130 armor (assuming they aren't Malphite or stacking chain vests) by lvl 8. 45 flat Armpen will reduce this to 95 armor which is a 20% increase to physical damage to that target (first 100 resist value = % reduction, second 100 = 1/2% reduction). compared to, yi's e (assuming equal items) passive is an extra 12.25 damage per auto attack, and the only abilities which scale off AD are his passive, and the attack speed boost on his ult. on a typical auto attack, assuming a base AD of around 80 (this is low), 35 AD would then be a 15.3% increase in damage. I agree that the active componenent on the yi's e makes it more powerful for dueling, but if you're going AD yi then your base sustain is going to be much lower than if Nahuatl switches to feed stance. He also lacks cc, which Nahuatl has, so he needs a good steroid to compensate. Also, with the introduction of the new black cleaver, flat pen is much stronger. for example, at max stacks black cleaver gives 7.5%*4=30% armpen. With a point in the Weapon's Expertise (8% pen) mastery this yields a base armor of 83.72 for the previously 130 armor top laner (130*.7*.92). This means that fight's passive will deal its maximum effect, and your 45 armpen will be 45% increased damage, yi with the same item's e gives him 70*.6872-15= 48.104 ~ 49 extra damage. With black cleaver his base damage would be ~130 (rounded up from 129.1), so it is a 37.7% increase to AD based damage output. This arguement ignores the fact that Nehuatl should have an extra 15ish armor from his one rank in thickening hide, and can always switch to flight stance to wait out the active duration on wuju syle.

I had thought it would be a bit more overpowered than that top lane, but it's probably balanced now for top lane (considering yi has that attack speed boost from his ult, it would be little underpowered except your passive is still a massive AD steroid, giving 40 AD at max stacks, which is more than yi's e's passive bonus). What about for a jungler or in team fights though? Nahuatl is going to look to target the carries. Let's look at a tanky AP carry level 10 (because you're behind in the jungle/they're doing well), Orianna. Orianna's e gives her +10 armor per rank, max 5 ranks. by level 10, she might have 2-3 points in it (3 if against a hard lane--I'll assume 3 for arguement). Nahuatl is level 8 and probably hasn't got enough for a black cleaver yet, so let's say he has something like a wriggles and with his base attack damage his AD is around 100, and you have half stacks left on predator which comes to an extra 20 ad, for a total of 120. You're in fight stance so that you get the snare on rush, and by instantly spamming your e after landing Rush in the gank you instantly have 3 of 4 maximum stacks on Fight's passive slow so her movement speed is impaired 15% (you might want to buff this slightly). Ori can pop her w instantly and run away, so probably without lane support you just wasted your time.

But lets look at the damage, because this is really what I'm getting at. Ori's base armor at level 10 is 38. With armor yellows, this becomes 50 armor, and with 3 ranks in e this becomes 80 armor, assuming her ball is attached at the moment you gank her (you wouldn't gank her if it were, but let's assume). Fight's passive means that you get the full 45% extra damage from your passive, and over the course of the gank your ad went up to about 128, so you hurt her a little more.

Let's look at yi ganking in the same situation. His base attack damage is 100, plus 35 passive from his e. He pops highlander and attacks ori. His auto attacks only get an extra 70*.6 (40% dmg reduction from armor)= 42 damage, which is 42% more than his 100 base damage. But because predator puts Nehuatl at a similar base attack damage as yi's passive, only about half of this value is really seen. So an ability with a long cooldown (assuming no kill while in highlander), and which costs mana, is only giving 21% more damage from use.

Against a squishier mid, such as lux, base armor would be 60, so with the addition of a black cleaver Nehuatl would actually make their armor go negative, and give a few percent of damage amplification (at full stacks 60Armor *.7-60=-18). So the total damage amplification (solely from his passive, not from the item) would be 63% (36% from damage amplification, 27% from pen). AD carries should have similar resists, so the flat pen still seems excessive to me. I would make it percentage based (in which case you can increase it pretty much as high as you want), or an attack speed steroid which has plenty of comparisons for balance issues. As it is currently, the passive from fight alone on your q at level 8 is on par with yi popping both wuju syle and highlander for auto attack damage alone. When you take into consideration that Nahuatl also has AD moves which will gain the dmg bonus, as well as the fact that the ability is on at most a 4 second cd, the 45 flat pen is still broken (sorry).

As for trundle's contaminate, I would really like to see it buffed so that he can turn it on and everywhere he goes on the map he gets the buffs. as it is, he can only move 500 units before he's out of the area of effect. So if he pops it, and then Nehuatl uses rush while in flight, he can actually completely nullify the ability (tenacity doesn't affect knockback afterall). On the other hand Nehuatl's abilities are inherent, meaning he always has a static 40% tenacity. This is overpowered compared to existing champions. Considering it doesn't cost any resource, it's even more OP. I agree that 40% movespeed makes more sense for a champion in flight stance than the flat armor and mr, and I'm a little surprised you didn't include any sort of AS steroid in his kit. Personally this third of his q is really reminiscent of prenerf Rengar's battle roar (cd 15-11 seconds). If the ability degraded over time (say the 2 seconds between switching stances?) so that it was really a panic "oh please don't die right now" button I'd understand, but currently it's more like super-tank stance.

I didn't notice it when I was reading through earlier, but do the stacks of resist from his e ever degrade (other than when replaced by stacks of the other resist type)? I had assumed they did, if not this might be slightly OP, or just marginally balanced, I'm unsure.

I like the new ult, and look forward to seeing where you take this.


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Osprii

Senior Member

12-08-2012

Wow, thanks for the rating Moby. It makes me feel all good about Nahuatl. Hopefully I can make him even better.
And thanks for the math Dzanio. I was too lazy to do it myself.

I think I probably should make his Fight stance a percent armor pen, because that would be easier to balance.... Also, I'll make some additional changes to the Flight stance, reducing the armor/mr and granting it some move speed so it makes more sense and isn't as powerful for just tanking. I wouldn't want a player to pop the Flight stance in a fight instead of the Fight stance, I only want him to use it when either he or an ally need to escape (or if he's roaming, I guess.. wait, no, that's what his passive is for). Oh, and the stacks from his E are supposed to degrade, I just forgot to mention it.

Wow, thanks a ton, really. You've helped me resolve so many issues on this guy.

Ok, just edited, and I changed his passive so it now grants attack speed, because he does need attack speed. It grants slightly more attack speed than Jax's passive, because Jax can get his attack speed in quicker than Nahuatl can. Also, Flight now gives move speed based on enemy proximity. So not so good for roaming, because that's what his passive does already. I also mentioned that Thickening Hide degrades per second while out of combat, and I changed Fight to percent armorpen. Do you think it's too much? It's as much as Last Whisper, so I think that's good, right?


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Falstar

Senior Member

12-09-2012

Fight passive needs a huge reword. At max rank, it penetrates more than Darius's E, bleeds more than Darius's passive, and the slow/DoT is stronger than GP's passive. Being that he has a free Last Whisper pretty much, he can build like 1 longsword then pure tank and still dish out a ton of damage.

Flight is similar to Mundo's W, however, Mundo's W penalizes him for using it. Forcing him to build HP or HP regen in order to be able to use it more consistently. However, being it a passive on this character, it's ridiculously strong, it doesn't do damage, however it gives him (Believe it or not) a TON of resistances. Say if you go into a teamfight, you can facetank their whole team considering you have Aegis on your team (Or even rushing Aegis on him), with a Taric/Soraka, he'll never die.

Anyway, I think a bit of rebalancing to make him a bit softer on the large bonus stats would be better. Say more armor penetration per Bonus AD, and more bonus armor according to perhaps his bonus HP or AP, making him more versatile.

Something like this

Fight: Bonus Armor Penetration 3/6/9/12/15% (+1% per 30 bonus AD)

Flight: Bonus Armor and Magic Resist +3/6/9/12/15 (+1 per 50 AP) or (+1 per bonus 90 hp)


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Osprii

Senior Member

12-11-2012

OMG. I reworked Fight like 8 times already... sigh.

Look, the passive toggle is just that, a passive. Yes, it penetrates more than Darius's E, but it doesn't pull. It has a stronger DoT/slow than GP and Darius's passive, but it's not a passive. It's an actual ability. I would say that Darius's Q is a lot stronger than his passive, wouldn't you? So therefore, Nahuatl's Q should be a lot stronger than Darius's passive. However, I do like your idea of stacking the passives, so they aren't so powerful early game but scale well into late game. That's very interesting, but I'm not reducing the base amounts by that much. I'll definitely reduce them, though. He should have a similar base amount to Darius's E, because his E also has a pull, which can be equivalent to the bleed/slow.

Flight is like Mundo's W, but it doesn't deal damage. Instead, it gives him resistance and some good move speed. But again, I'll reduce the base somewhat and make it stack off of Health or AD, but not AP. It would only stack a bit off health, though, so he can't build like a super tank. Let's see, Rammus has 40/60/80/100/120 armor/mr for 6 seconds on a 14 second cooldown, and returns damage. The crowd control reduction and move speed is probably more useful than the damage return, and is probably about as useful as that and a fourth of the armor/mr bonus, so I'll just base it off of Rammus only gaining 30/45/60/75/90 armor/mr. 6/14 seconds*30/45/etc is about 12/19/25/32/38, but Nahuatl is now stacking off of health, so I'm gonna put him at...10/15/20/25/30.. wasn't that what I was just at? No, it's slightly lower, I think.

Thanks for the feedback and stacking idea. It's useful.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

12-11-2012

Alrighty...Let's get right into it.



-Passive- : Interesting passive. Pretty effective one too.

-Q-
Fight : This is pretty powerful...Just think if he's stacking BC with the state it's in. Also the bleed is pretty good too.

Flight : Basically free tenacity at full level and a fair amount of movement speed. Pretty good.

Feed : Not sure I understand the Arc...Demonstration on paper maybe? :3


-W- Good gap closer. Fair amount of damage. Not sure about being intangible when the Fight passive is active but otherwise okay.

-E- : ...Fairly complicated ( A sh*t-ton of stacks is what I got out of it :3 ) but all and all very good ability.

-R- : Really nice ultimate. Defensive and Offensive and not overpowered at all (Which can be very hard to do with an Defensive/Offensive ability). Very nicely done.


-Lore- Very nice. Good story although it kinda feels like you or whoever wrote it (Not questioning your ability, I just don't know who wrote it exactly) threw Nidalee in as an afterthought. Although I'm fine with referencing existing champions, you have to be careful when you do it because it can either be done exceptionally well...Or fail miserably.


All in all, good and extremely complicated concept. Definitely works a +1. Maybe you could take a look at one of my champions when you have time? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2874477 ^^


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Osprii

Senior Member

12-12-2012

Thanks for the review Cryoshell. I'm still looking at Fight Passive, and all the passives on the Q, trying to make them good early game, but not to good, and still carrying into late game, without making Nahuatl stack AP. Yeah, I made this guy before BC was changed, so I'm not sure... but as a point of reference Darius has 25% arpen, so BC can get him over 55%.

And, yeah, I'll check out your champs.


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Dzanio

Senior Member

12-15-2012

The new passive is like a deconstructed version of Fiora's burst of speed (e), with almost the same passive health regen as her passive grants (although with a different mechanism). Fiora's passive is underpowered so I'm ok with buffing it (to be clear you get less max regen w/ this, but a **** ton of extra damage), but her e is an amazing steroid on its own so giving him a good 4 ranks of it free is too much. I'd suggest reducing the scaling on the attack and movespeed, or reducing the max stacks on adaptation to make it the equivalent of the e at 2-3 ranks (75-90% steroid) instead of 4 (105+%) which imo would make it not horribly overpowered at his max level.

I'm glad you changed fight, it's better balanced and should help his ability to trade in lane, and synergyizes with his passive for ganks. The dot is probably balanced, I think it will do about as much damage as the active on Irelia's hiten style would after it has finished stacking.

Feed was probably balanced for a single target, now overpowered.

Also, I think it would be appropriate for this ability to cost a little mana, maybe 15ish per toggle? Each stance is comparable to an active from another champ, so some sort of balancing mechanism needs to be there.

Also the cd in your ability description does not match the cd at the bottom of the ability. Update the text please?

Eviscerate does like 600-800 dmg upon its first cast at max ranks with no crit chance or tri force/frozen gauntlet proc or any other form of damage amplification, is an autoattack reset, gives massive sustain, has a short cd, and grants damage amplification. WAY OP. (This is at level 8, not full build) If this were an ultimate I'd make it cost 500 mana and have a 3-4 minute cd for the benefits it gives. It's not an ult. Base cd needs to be much higher, consumed stacks needs to be much higher, it should not grant regen, the damage amplification from being at reduced health is MUCH TOO HIGH, mana cost should be increased, base damage needs a nerf, it does not require ad scaling (it's an on hit effect), damage amp should be reduced.

Upon reviewing his ult, I think the % missing health damage scales too fast, I'd start it around 5-8%, and bring it up to at most 15%. The rest of his dmg kit has been buffed significantly, and I don't feel he needs this much assassination potential. Even with at max %dmg degradation it currently adds over a hundred bonus damage against squishy targets.

Major Nerfs Required.


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