don't like the new deathcap

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Galgus

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Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabs457 View Post
the survivability (unwanted or not) allows for damage to be pumped out in a longer time-frame. that is quite a damage boost if you look beyond the raw stats of AP and trying to attribute it to gold cost
That works on some mages, but not on others- specifically burst mages.

As, say, Veigar building no durability other than Wooglets to maximize damage, I will barely even notice the time Armor buys.

The Active is still somewhat useful, but unless some teammate makes an awesome rescue it is unlikely to help me survive.

Some casters just don't build into the tanky AP archetype well, and a more damage-oriented alternative to the item could help them out.

(Or, at least, present a viable alternative for focusing on damage.)


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hinderlopen

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Buying pure damage as a mage is almost never a good idea in dominion. Yes, a veigar going DFG + deathcap will blow someone up harder than DFG+wooglets, but only by a little, and the latter will also have the wooglet active to give him a chance at a second round of burst

Either way, you would have a better time building a bit of hp instead of rushing wooglets, like rod of ages, BFT, and rylai's.


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FeanorAlmighty

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11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
That works on some mages, but not on others- specifically burst mages.

As, say, Veigar building no durability other than Wooglets to maximize damage, I will barely even notice the time Armor buys.

The Active is still somewhat useful, but unless some teammate makes an awesome rescue it is unlikely to help me survive.

Some casters just don't build into the tanky AP archetype well, and a more damage-oriented alternative to the item could help them out.

(Or, at least, present a viable alternative for focusing on damage.)
You know why the active is so damn powerful? It helps you to get your spells back up without worrying about dying. use a combo and when they jump on you, you use the active and your teammates peel those bruisers off you. When you are ready to strike again, your spells will be too.

The only caster who doesn't need survivability might be Lux, but if you want to use her to full extent (= also passive procs) then you do need it. DPS is more than just Damage, it's also the Seconds you are alive.


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Galgus

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11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinderlopen View Post
Buying pure damage as a mage is almost never a good idea in dominion. Yes, a veigar going DFG + deathcap will blow someone up harder than DFG+wooglets, but only by a little, and the latter will also have the wooglet active to give him a chance at a second round of burst

Either way, you would have a better time building a bit of hp instead of rushing wooglets, like rod of ages, BFT, and rylai's.
Raw damage mages like Veigar prefer the pure damage Deathcap over Wooglets, and on average the active would only buy an extra Q.

Veigar works best when he maximizes damage without wasting gold on survivability stats not tied to maximizing damage.


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Galgus

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11-22-2012

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Originally Posted by FeanorAlmighty View Post
You know why the active is so damn powerful? It helps you to get your spells back up without worrying about dying. use a combo and when they jump on you, you use the active and your teammates peel those bruisers off you. When you are ready to strike again, your spells will be too.

The only caster who doesn't need survivability might be Lux, but if you want to use her to full extent (= also passive procs) then you do need it. DPS is more than just Damage, it's also the Seconds you are alive.
Even with max CDR, Veigar's stun- the only spell that would save him- probably wouldn't be up with the Zhonyas time.

Veigar just stays far back enough that he is hard to reach- and a team worth anything will collapse on a single assassin who jumps in for him and kill them before they can take him down.

(And a Veigar worth anything will stun him before he gets anything done.)

AP Nidalee is probably the most survivable, though- even with Cougar form, she doesn't need Wooglets if she picks her fights well.


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GET REKT FGT

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11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
Even with max CDR, Veigar's stun- the only spell that would save him- probably wouldn't be up with the Zhonyas time.

Veigar just stays far back enough that he is hard to reach- and a team worth anything will collapse on a single assassin who jumps in for him and kill them before they can take him down.

(And a Veigar worth anything will stun him before he gets anything done.)

AP Nidalee is probably the most survivable, though- even with Cougar form, she doesn't need Wooglets if she picks her fights well.
And assuming they collapse on Veigar, with that 50 armor he'd take less damage and still be around to throw a second sequence of spells even after the passive wore off and his stun wasn't up by the time the 2.5 seconds stopped...

AP Nidalee will still need Wooglets, if she's standing out simply poking with spears, well the person who's playing her is not playing her to her full potential. Secondly, assuming AP Nidalee does get jumped, I'd rather have her be able to survive, get away, and still be able to poke at the very least than blowing up because she built no survivability whatsoever. All it does is make the fights a 4v5 assuming the enemy team gets whiff that someone is glass, especially a "burst mage".


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Galgus

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11-22-2012

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Originally Posted by Ekis the Seraph View Post
And assuming they collapse on Veigar, with that 50 armor he'd take less damage and still be around to throw a second sequence of spells even after the passive wore off and his stun wasn't up by the time the 2.5 seconds stopped...

AP Nidalee will still need Wooglets, if she's standing out simply poking with spears, well the person who's playing her is not playing her to her full potential. Secondly, assuming AP Nidalee does get jumped, I'd rather have her be able to survive, get away, and still be able to poke at the very least than blowing up because she built no survivability whatsoever. All it does is make the fights a 4v5 assuming the enemy team gets whiff that someone is glass, especially a "burst mage".
If they collapse on Veigar, he's dead unless he is builing tanky AP aside just a Wooglets- and he is very outclassed as a tanky AP mage.

(And he is probably dead anyway.)


Event Horizon at rank 5- which is rather late in the game- has a base cool-down of 16 seconds.

With 40% CDR, this goes down to 9.6 seconds.

Assuming Veigar threw the stun at the start of the fight where the enemies apparently collapsed on him, I'm not seeing the 50 armor and 2.5 second stall helping Veigar out much in most situations.


AP Nidalee is amazing at escaping without Wooglets given the Pounce mobility on Cougar form- and she shouldn't be letting enemies close unless she is delivering a finishing blow as a Cougar.

(Using her Cougar form with an AP build is about jumping in when the enemy can't hurt you due to a distraction or low health.)

I won't deny that in some situations the Wooglets survivability could help Veigar or AP Nidalee, but both would like an alternative damage-oriented item.


Its as if Riot is trying to force every mage into a tanky AP mold with Wooglets.


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hinderlopen

Senior Member

11-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
Raw damage mages like Veigar prefer the pure damage Deathcap over Wooglets, and on average the active would only buy an extra Q.

Veigar works best when he maximizes damage without wasting gold on survivability stats not tied to maximizing damage.
You are forgetting Veigar's enormous base damage. Even if all he can get off after wooglet's active is another Q, that's an extra 260 + .6AP. If you do the math, you see that for QWR to have as much damage as QWR + Q, QWR needs to be done with 160ish more AP than the QWR+Q. That is quite a lot of AP, 3200 gold worth of AP, just for being able to cast an additional Q.

So if veigar wants to maximize his damage, he should build towards having a decent amount of AP (not falling behind the pure AP build by 160) while still being able to throw out that extra Q.

This can be applied to other mages, since they all have very nice base damage, so other mages should be building some tankiness in order to use more of their spells.

I'm guessing you're still not convinced...so you should just try it more.


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Galgus

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11-22-2012

An extra Q can help, yes, but it is unlikely to be the finishing blow or save you after a Zhonya's active.

He needs good positioning and CDR for the extra Q, not the defensive active.

Veigar benefits rather heavily from maximizing his damage, and is just out-classed in the tanky AP territory.


You are in essence saying that every mage should be built tanky AP- and I argue that not all are suited to it as well as others.

Veigar actually rewards going glass cannon.


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AlphaFerric

Senior Member

11-22-2012

If you're playing veigar in dom your aiming more for sustained damage at top due to his somewhat low cooldowns. And I would take a tanky aoe stunning veigar over a glass cannon one any day of the week in dom.


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