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[Feedback] - New Masteries

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ploki122

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Offense Tree

Basically, you have the least useful stats at first now (CDR, AS), which makes sense.
Havoc is now a bit stronger, and a bit deeper (T2 -> T3), still feel a bit useless imo. (3k hp opponent, you killed it alone, it allowed you to deal 60 more damage, so you saved, maybe, 1 attack.
Destruction now deals 2.5/5% more damage to tower instead of +10... this one makes sense, although it really do lower the early pushing potential. I prefer the S2 one since pushing potential is pretty much only needed early (dealing +20 damage end-game isn't as good as dealing +10 early)... Only time I can see this one being realy useful is on "tower bursters" (Triforce/lich and abusing procs to take it down sooner without committing).
Lethality->Frenzy looks a lot more interesting than the old one (Deadliness->Lethal). I don't have a clue how powerful frenzy can actually be tho...
Executioner : %hp cap raised from 40% to 50%, %dmg increase reduced from 6% to 5%... I actually like this change. Should overall get the same amount of damage, but in most cases it's gonna be more effective imo.
Spellsword was added, +5% AP to AAs, a bit weak... like all masteries. So I fell this one is fairly balanced, and every AP should use this one (since it's this or 1.5AP). Also this will help APs cs and harass with AA.
Oh and garrison is now offensive... not quite sure why since it's usually the tanks/support who takes it

All in all, there wasn't many changes in the offensive tree... mostly displacements and changing the number of points that you can allocate to each one... There is still only 2 decent paths... and they are made so you don't have to make a choice, ever (unless you want spellsword, and even then the choice is pretty obvious...)



Defensive Tree

A lot more changes in here, new heal mastery (+5h/level) is really great and I think more should be like this one (instead of +20 shielded... which is useless at level 5+).
No more initiation tools in masteries. However, they got replaced by sticking tool like reduced slows and tenacity.
Added safeguard which is a 1-point wonder... Added defender which is also a 1 point wonder...
Reduced death timer is now T5 defensive, which is pretty nice given the fact that tank dies... and it's only 1 point for 10% now.
Reinforced armor seems a bit weird tho... you basically commit yourself to countering a fed ADC before the game even starts...


All in all, I love the movement once more, and the new masteries are very nice. However I think there are still a case of trap masteries... like Defender is better than 1 point in Legendary armor in most cases... in lane you will have <80 armor/mr most probably and so you will be better with the flat 1, and when the jungler dies, you become even stronger. Also, it might help to find a sitting ganker...



Utility Tree

Now that's what's I'm talking about... honestly, the tree is so appealing that I even ran 0/1/29 for my first few supports.

Wanderer for roaming champs, could even use a slightly better MS imo (since you commit to not being stronger).
Scout still isn't quite there imo... the number of times that it would actually help to have 3s of bigger vision just seem so scarce. I will try it tho since I can't judge it otherwise. The biggest use is unwarding imo (it might actually serve then...).
Artificier : NICE!
Biscuiteer : it just doesn't feel like something I'd want... you basically have a wasted point after 3 minutes into the game... maybe if it allowed you to buy biscuits for cheaper than pots, then it would actually be very appealing (maybe even move it to T4/T5)
Vampirism is way too deep, carries are never gonna specialize in utility, imo. The only champs I could see using it is assassins that relies on items, who takes artificier, improved recall, mastermind, wanderer... and they don't need the vamp since they are bursters... whereas sustained DPS will want damage more than sustian in most cases... remains tanks, who simply can't do it without Defensive.
Pickpocket : NICE!!!!!!!!
Explorer : also a bit weak imo... it will only help if it's untargetable (like really, not only crash if you target), but also unseeable (not even the hp bar) and only for sniping from dragon/baron steals without them knowing it. Once again, buying more explorer wards could be useful.


All in all, tons of new masteries, mosts are very nice, however i'm dubious about their position... I think that there would need to be a lot of T1/2 and a lot of T4/5, with no middle grounds... that pretty much sums utility tho, it's either brokenly overpowered or very weak.






Basically, I would like to see all tree shifts toward a Defensive lookalike where you don't have a necessary path, but simply specializations (ok, might be harder for offensive, but going for AA/spells might help tweak it toward AD casters and such). Also, I don't really like masteries like biscuiteer and explorer whose effects are lost past a certain point.

Quote:
KImre:
I will share my views too here:


Offensive Tree:
Didn't change too much.Tiers have been changed a bit as well as the strength of the masteries(nerfs) and we got Spellsword,which is something that could be useful for AP auto attackers.
However there were no big changes overall.

Defense Tree:
Big changes here.Defense went lower in the tree to make it no so accessible.
The only initialization mastery disappeared.This is something i really don't like.I lost 11ms just because that mastery disappeared.The one which gave +movement speed over 70% hp afaik.
We have Juggernaut which is still something i won't ever pick up.The gained bonus hp is not great enough to consider picking it up.
At 2000hp it gives 80 hp?With 3 point on it?Really?
At 3000hp it gives 120hp?Uh oh.
It's a T4 mastery already and need 3 points to get that hp amount what i don't find useful compared to the reduced slow or CC.Try to increase it to make it more appealing(between 5 and 6 %).As right now i wouldn't ever waste point to that mastery.
Also there is an empty place next to Juggernaut !!!!.
Please consider bringing back Initiator for those who want a little more movement speed instead cc reduction and Enlightment for those who want CDR.

Also you can just delete Juggernaut and put Initiator OR Enlightement to it's place instead...

Also there is Legendary Armor which is in T5,requires 2-3 point and a lot of resistance to get the same effect in teamfights as Defender.The scaling on it with 1,2 and 3 points is quite bad.
Consider increasing the scale from the current one.
Math time:
1 point of Legendary Armor:
100 armor ->1.25 bonus resistance
120 armor ->1.5 bonus resistance
150 armor ->1.875 bonus resistance
200 armor->2.5 bonus resistance.

2 points of Legendary Armor:
100 armor ->2.5 bonus resistance
120 armor ->3 bonus resistance
150 armor ->3.75 bonus resistance
200 armor->5 bonus resistance.

3 points of Legendary Armor:
100 armor ->3.75 bonus resistance
120 armor ->4.5 bonus resistance
135 armor ->5.0625 bonus resistance
150 armor ->5.626 bonus resistance
200 armor->7.5 bonus resistance.

4 points of Legendary Armor:
100 armor ->5 bonus resistance
120 armor ->6 bonus resistance
150 armor ->7.5 bonus resistance
200 armor->10 bonus resistance.

So in a 5v5 teamfight i need 3 point of LA. and 134-135 armor to get the same effect as Defender.This does not look good for me at all.
I can put the 2 point into reduced CC or less time spend dead or other masteries.
So i would like to see an increase on the scale of Legendary Armor.From the current one to something like this 1.75/2.75/4/5%.


Then there is Good Hands in T5 which came from the utility which brings another problem.

Utility Tree:Big changes here as well.Supports have way more choices here which is a good thing.
Scout is still useless.Wards are usually placed when no enemy champions are near.
Better change would be if it could see into the brush in that duration.
So it would be wards gain 25% increased vision and reveal the area for the first 3 seconds after placing them.Now that is actually something i could use and would put point into.

Going 21 in utility is worse than before with Mordekaiser,Katarina aka the manaless AP champs.
Before i could put points into good hand(3 points),Swiftness(4 points) and 1 point into Recall.Which resulted in good stats especially the movement speed.
But now i need to waste 1 point on either Scout or Artificer to get to T3.
Putting point into Artificer means i will need to build an activable item to benefit from the reduced active cooldown.But what if i don't/can't buy one???It's a waste of point.
Also putting 1 point into Scout is not that good either.IF it gets buffs then this complaint is null.

Sage disappeared,which leads to changes that are not good.
I am now forced to pick Greed to proceed further in the tree.And guess what i can't reach nimble with the points i have left.
Old pick:
3 points good hands
4 points swiftness
1 point improved recall
3 point transmutation
1 point runic affinity
4 point awareness
1 point sage
3 point intelligence
1 point mastermind

New pick:
3 point wanderer
1 point imrpoved recall
3 point mastermind
1 point for either artificer or scout Currently it's a waste of point
1 point runic affinity
And here comes the problem:
Mordekaiser and Katarina does not need Greed at all.And putting point into Biscuiteer is a waste as well.
But anyway let's put 3 point into greed.
4 point awareness
3 point vampirism
3 point intell-- OH WAIT i don't have more points left. 2 points Intelligence.
0 point Nimble.

So all in all i only lose important stats with the new mastery change in case of Mordekaiser and Katarina.

I lose:
3% permanent movement speed (HOLY SH--,Mordekaiser has no CC or mobility increase ability so this is a key stat for him.)
40 bonus experience on kills and assists.This is a huge stat too.This allowed Mordekaiser to snowball as well as Katarina.
+2% cooldown reduction
-5% cooldown reduction of Summoner Spells(Though this is probably a nerf across the board,but still )

I (gain):
+3% lifesteal
1.5 gold every 10 sec.
2% increased movement speed when out of combat. Mordekaiser needs movement speed in lane to not die and in teamfights.He is not a roamer as far as i know.
So this mastery is kinda useless for Morde.

Final stats i lose:
1% movement speed out of combat.But then again this out of combat increased ms stat is pretty bad on him...
40 bonus exp on kill and assist
+2% CDR
-5% CDR on Summoner Spells

Final stats i gain:
+3% lifesteal
1.5 gold every 10 sec

It's clear the lost stats outweight the gained stats a lot.

I thought Morello and other reds said that EACH ROLE will have better choices to spec into each tree.
This is not true in this case.
I think there is a hole in Utility tree which does not allow for Mordekaiser especially to have the ability to spec into the utility tree without wasted points.Pleae look into this.

Katarina does not suffer too much because she can roam quite well but she suffers from these changes as well.


These are my thoughts.


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RuSK47

Senior Member

11-16-2012

I like the potential the masteries have. Some of them like the reduced dmg from crits are nice if you see a crit heavy team for example

I forsee myself making the max number of preset masteries now easily as they seem like they can be very useful in the team select draft lobby


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
RuSK47:
I like the potential the masteries have. Some of them like the reduced dmg from crits are nice if you see a crit heavy team for example

I forsee myself making the max number of preset masteries now easily as they seem like they can be very useful in the team select draft lobby


Well, while I do agree there is a lot of possible path, I don't see a lot of viable paths... Except maybe a 5x ADC/tryn team, I don't really know about Crit-heavy comps... it's really more balanced usually and taking the -% crit means that you are certain that ADC will be the one making the difference (and getting crit relatively soon enough that you are better with -10% crit dmg than with +2.5% armor/mr...). What I mean is that some of these are way too niche to be taken before a game. That being said, I would really enjoy an item that reduces damages taken from crits...


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Zidern

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
ploki122:
Offense Tree

Biscuiteer : it just doesn't feel like something I'd want... you basically have a wasted point after 3 minutes into the game... maybe if it allowed you to buy biscuits for cheaper than pots, then it would actually be very appealing (maybe even move it to T4/T5)
Explorer : also a bit weak imo... it will only help if it's untargetable (like really, not only crash if you target), but also unseeable (not even the hp bar) and only for sniping from dragon/baron steals without them knowing it. Once again, buying more explorer wards could be useful.


I actually find this very good. Explorer is like starting with 75 extra gold for a ward which could be really good for early jungle invades. and Biscuiteer is again an extra health and mana pot for just 1 point. Not like 1%SV and LS will be so important lategame, and that pot can really help ur laning


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Hemops

Member

11-16-2012

I feel the Vampirism mastery should be in the offence tree like how it used to be. Makes more sense unless sustained damage champions, which would make more use of the mastery, feel that a minimum 12 mastery points in utility is better than in another tree.


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Zidern:
I actually find this very good. Explorer is like starting with 75 extra gold for a ward which could be really good for early jungle invades. and Biscuiteer is again an extra health and mana pot for just 1 point. Not like 1%SV and LS will be so important lategame, and that pot can really help ur laning


First of all, Explorer is like 25g, since it's a 1 minute ward. Next biscuiteer is 80hp and 50 mana... this basically gives you a 36g headstart, for 2 points you are at 61... sure it's useful, but honestly, the application of either is very limited as opposed to the 50g start... and the 50 bonus starting gold is on the same tier as the ward... so I don't see why I would take a ward and a mixed pot (meaning that I lose efficiency if i'm not low on mana and health) over 50g clean...

Basically, it isn't useless, it's simply worth less than everything else in it's tier (and biscuit is worth more than ward)


Quote:
I NEEEED IT:
I feel the Vampirism mastery should be in the offence tree like how it used to be. Makes more sense unless sustained damage champions, which would make more use of the mastery, feel that a minimum 12 mastery points in utility is better than in another tree.

The problem I see with that is that I wouldn't see any reason that carries would defect from their 1 mastery build... and that was pretty much the first goal of remakes, giving possibilities...


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KyroRayne

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
Spellsword was added, +5% AP to AAs, a bit weak... like all masteries. So I fell this one is fairly balanced, and every AP should use this one (since it's this or 1.5AP). Also this will help APs cs and harass with AA.


This is great for Teemo o-o I hate seeing AS/AP teemo, but with the mastery and item changes, he's a much more solid pick with AS/AP though he does lack the sustain of AD Tankmo.

Now for Mages like Veigar.... Yeah... it doesn't do much. 30 extra damage per AA at 600 AP. You would need a mage who has a higher AS rating for it to be really effective, like TF, Nidalee, Nunu.


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Winktoblink

Senior Member

11-16-2012

I personally will try 9/0/21 Ashe now. DEm gold bonuses and lifesteal >.>
Especially since lifesteal is much more expensive now.
Plus, Bonus movement speed is nice, as well as mana regen.

Putting a point in biscuit kind of saves you 35 gold in a way. Putting a point in the ward feels useless to me though.

Since Ad carries scale better with items, building an Avarice early, having a sustain support, having dem gold masteries in utility, I can see dat ashe farming up quite nicely.

Also, maybe flash and barrier for defensive spells, and the support picking up heal.

At the same time, she could be countered by a Leona and Vayne Combo.


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Jenkin Rei:
This is great for Teemo o-o I hate seeing AS/AP teemo, but with the mastery and item changes, he's a much more solid pick with AS/AP though he does lack the sustain of AD Tankmo.

Now for Mages like Veigar.... Yeah... it doesn't do much. 30 extra damage per AA at 600 AP. You would need a mage who has a higher AS rating for it to be really effective, like TF, Nidalee, Nunu.


Actually, it's a lot better than what everyone gives it credits for... let's say that you AA at least once every spell rotation... it means that you are opposing the spellsword to 1.5AP... the values break even now let's say you are a scaly caster and you have a kit with 3.5AP ratio, and rabadon , meaning that the ap mastery gives you 14 additional damages... it means you need 273 AP to break even (210 given rabadon)... So yeah, this one is the one mastery that actually requires maths to get the full value... but it's pretty simple, it's always worth it (except maybe on the biggest bursters like akali, Xerath, etc. who have like 5+ AP ratio).

So yeah, this proof was a little bit biased toward AP and it still gave spellsword the advantage... busted.

Annex :
AP maths : 1.5AP *3.5ratio*1.3rabadonMultiplier = 13.65
SS maths : 13.65 damages / .05ratio = 273AP /1.3rabadonMultiplier = 210.


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Muel

Junior Member

11-16-2012

While we are discussing the new masteries ... can I suggest that Riot makes some reminders that the mastery pages have been reset?

Many players, including myself, forget to set their pages before habitually starting a game ...

Just maybe a floating box similar to those +1 mastery point/+1 rune slot reminders we get when we level up would be nice.


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