[Featured Discussion] The S3 versions of Manamune and Archangel's Staff

First Riot Post
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KaWraith

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Nome: Possible fix for out of combat spamming: tie the mana charges to actually doing damage to champions/minions.
doubling the rate of mana gain would be good for dominion... i have rarely gotten to 750+ in dominion in a sub 30 minute game. (in one really long game I hit 1000)


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Malah

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is primarily why I'm reticent to make the change.
I don't want Kassadin to get even more nuts with an activatable shield. I'm not too worried about Manamune though, as it's much better on RADC than bruisers and melee.
I never thought I would say the following words: I'm not afraid of Mana Kassadin.

Urgot with Muramana. Have a nice day.

One grenade landing = instant death. Then again, compared to some of the stuff I've seen in the S3 items that looks balanced.


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TheWheatOne

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Fact: Standard items in Dominion are not fully balanced, since SR is the main concern for items that both modes use. Either make a new modified item in their likeness, like how the new TT does with many, or just let the meta take care of it. Trying to have it fully useful in both modes for all champs that would want to use it is fruitless, and would make it a miserable item to balance in the long-term. In fact, I would say it would displease everyone if you go that route.


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Orphane

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostStalker86 View Post
Kha'zix, Pantheon, Urgot, Talon, Darius?
You just listed 3 very strong champions, one situationally strong one, and one faceroller. Do you even play Dominion?


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

11-16-2012

I have mixed feelings on it---the new items are going to make Kassadin even more insane than he currently is (And now he has a better way to frozen heart allowing him to tank even sooner) with the new items such as Frozen Fist.

Allowing him to peak even earlier with Serpah's is going to border on insane.


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Arance

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malah View Post
I never thought I would say the following words: I'm not afraid of Mana Kassadin.

Urgot with Muramana. Have a nice day.

One grenade landing = instant death. Then again, compared to some of the stuff I've seen in the S3 items that looks balanced.
Also Yorick...


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Orphane

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Regarding Manamune, the changes will probably cause some people to pick it up that didn't before, but the two champs (Blitzcrank and AD Malz) that benefit the most from the change already built it to begin with - Muramana is just icing on the cake. It's still very much an early game tradeoff that champs that rely on their early game shouldn't rush as a start (Yorick, Urgot), but it might be decent as a 2nd item depending on if you do modify the charge time.

Regarding Seraph's Embrace...well... draining 25% of your mana for shield means damage Kass isn't putting into Riftwalks. A 2 minute cooldown potentially makes it less abusive than initial impressions might give, and honestly nobody but Ryze and Kass ever got to actually think about Archangel's staff anyways. Charge time reduction in this regards *might* encourage greater build diversity, but usually most champs are OK for mana as soon as they grab Glacial. I don't see people suddenly swapping over to AA anytime soon.

In closing - the people who are interested in the Tear item changes got Tear to begin with, which is a pretty niche item pick. Does making it charge faster really make a big difference in appeal? Possibly, but in many cases champs got other items to begin with - AA/Manamune was never a consideration. Could Kass, AD Malz, and Blitz get abusive if you lower the charge requirement? Kass is already abusive - the itemization changes probably will highlight it but itemization wasn't the route to fixing his brokenness to begin with. I don't know about the other two.


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Catnium

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

lower cap , or simply building more charges on cast/attack
what ever is easy for you guys over at riot to work/balance with


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Tenebrae Corvus

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Amateur opinion: it's a good point whether to modify the cap or not. If the cap is reduced champions that have trouble charging it will have a better chance of evolving them. However, champions that can spam spells and greatly benefit from mana, looking at you Kassadin, could get out of hand.

Usually, neither Manamune nor Archangel's Staff reach maximum charges unless abilities are spammed non-stop. Even so, they would evolve by late game, so as Nome says there won't be much chance of using the actives.

Maybe the solution is in having similar items suited to the fast gameplay of Dominion: faster charges but less mana to keep the Kassadins in check.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is primarily why I'm reticent to make the change.
I don't want Kassadin to get even more nuts with an activatable shield. I'm not too worried about Manamune though, as it's much better on RADC than bruisers and melee.
Such as Urgot for example. AD Malzahar hell think of the implications of Ryze with this item, weaving in autos between spells riven style.

I have been of the mind that the Tears item in general is toxic to dominion as it allows champions balanced around being unable to spam their stuff, to spam their stuff straight away. Season 3 seems like a good time to consider removing tears completely and force champions that want mana/regen to actually invest in doing so.