The new Executioners Calling

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Nekrocow

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12-13-2012

Off-Topic: Wow man... Mr Robot is SO cool!


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WhackedRak

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12-13-2012

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Originally Posted by Kalasen View Post
The old executioner's really did give great stats, and was really quite powerful, I would even say overpowered, for the price. The problem, the reason almost nobody ever bought it, was because of where it liked to be placed in builds. It was a cheap item that gave great laning stats with the damage over time and heal reduction active. But almost everyone who built it found that their last hitting started sucking hard, to the point that you couldn't do the classic a-tower-a or tower-tower-a lasthit combo. You ^need^ that lasthitting power early, which is why you always see doran's or a BF or the new vamp scepter on carries as their first items alongside boots.

The DoT was actually way better than you're giving it credit for. It's 36 magic damage every one-autoattack poke you do, almost as much as a wit's end proc. Sure, if that was your only DoT, you couldn't rely on it to kill near-death people due to health regen. But it's 36 damage, and if you do have a DoT on them (like ignite), it's 36 more magic damage you can count on when you're looking at their half a health pip as they run.

What they should have done with new executioner's is one of two options. First, don't give it an upgrade, but give it an effect that helps in last hitting, like bonus damage versus things below 25% health. That would let people who get it not fall hopelessly behind in ability to last hit, which was the main reason not to get it before. The second, nerf it a little, but give it a late game upgrade. You could then get it after your infinity edge without feeling bad. It shouldn't replace bloodthirster, so the upgrade shouldn't be AD based. I feel a neat mechanic with such an item would be for it to increase your crit chance based on your target's missing health. I dunno, maybe that's a bad idea. But the point is, old executioner's needed either its early last hitting issues solved, or an upgrade that made it worth getting once laning is about over

Also what the heck is with the new one's build path? Avarice blade is awesome to build something out of, yes, and subsidizes the finished item's cost... but it's building into a relatively cheap item. You might as well just hang on to avarice blade, forget executioner's, and save it for something like shiv. But what if you get the long sword? Then yes, great, your early last hitting is intact... but you're hanging on to a long sword. Might as well build that into the new vamp scepter, which is effectively 50 gold cheaper than the old vamp scepter with a long sword for the exact same stats, and people got vamp scepter all the time back then. Its build path is downright weird.

I know we can't really revert the executioner's changes, now, due to vamp scepter changes. And while I miss the old one, I'm okay with that. The problem is that we need an item to shut down mundo ults and voli passives and gunblade stacking akali and jax with good timing, but the new one is by no means cutting it. We need a longer effect, and we need not to hurt our build too much by dipping into it to counter those super-heals.
I agree that it was a conflicted item that was really useful for the laning phase, but the stats were damage modifiers that don't do a whole lot until you build damage. The new one was probably redesigned to pertain to this by adding the longsword and help with the early game last-hitting problem that you mentioned. I feel like they didn't consider the ramifications of changing it though. The build path is indeed bizarre and the smaller components are competing with much better options. I don't think the active is as useful as you're making it out to be when you can just take Ignite at champion select when you're against those champs you mentioned. Is Ignite's CD long enough to warrant blowing 2k gold on an item such as this?


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WhackedRak

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12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekrocow View Post
Off-Topic: Wow man... Mr Robot is SO cool!
It IS cool. And very undiscovered. It's been around for like 6 months now and no one uses it.


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WhackedRak

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12-13-2012

bump


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Kalasen

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12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhackedRak View Post
I agree that it was a conflicted item that was really useful for the laning phase, but the stats were damage modifiers that don't do a whole lot until you build damage. The new one was probably redesigned to pertain to this by adding the longsword and help with the early game last-hitting problem that you mentioned. I feel like they didn't consider the ramifications of changing it though. The build path is indeed bizarre and the smaller components are competing with much better options. I don't think the active is as useful as you're making it out to be when you can just take Ignite at champion select when you're against those champs you mentioned. Is Ignite's CD long enough to warrant blowing 2k gold on an item such as this?
But the relationship between AD and crit and AS and life steal is mutual and multiplying with each other. AD does more average damage per point when you have more crit, and crit does more average damage per point when you have more AD. Same with life steal and attack speed, except with life steal it's health gained per attack. The whole reason carries build all of them is that they're multiplicative, making each other more efficient compared to stacking just one. Some of the best results I got with old executioner's were from getting berserker greaves and two doran's blades before it, giving it the stats it synergizes with. The problem wasn't that the stats didn't do much, it's that the crit is unreliable for last hitting compared to flat AD.

As for the active being good? Yes. The active was up every 20 seconds and it halved all of natural health regen, health pots, normal support heal spam, and life steal in addition to all-ins when you'd normally blow an ignite. I didn't just get it against mundo/swain/voli/whatever teams, I also got it when my enemy laner had a healer support like soraka or sona or taric, or was against a champion that often gets bloodthirster first like sivir. Intending to go executioner's also freed you up to get other summoner spells, like putting exhaust on the carry and letting the support get clairvoyance or heal: I'd rather have clairvoyance's global map awareness than ignite's bit of extra all-in damage. You don't want to blow an ignite just because the enemy is using a health pot, but you could do that all day with the executioner's active.

I am making it sound better than it really was though. Not getting the BF or pickaxe you would have gotten with that 1350 gold usually wrecked your last hitting. For that reason I didn't build it much on anyone but draven, who can keep Q going all day to last hit with. And the active wasn't ^that^ amazing, because half the heal still gets through, and the enemy often backs off when using pots or about to get healed, and sometimes you're encouraged into a bad position just to clip off that pot's healing. It was also a little shorter than standard attack range. And that DoT is simply refreshed if you keep attacking, so you often weren't getting the full 36 bonus damage per hit. Not to mention that since it pretty much replaces the bloodthirster, you end up with 100 less AD and 2% life steal in that slot late game in exchange for 15% crit and half the price.

I do like that the new one keeps your last hitting just fine when you build it. The new one's problem is that it's really stat inefficient AND doesn't build into anything. I would probably feel a lot better about the new one if it built into something end game. I would love another AD/crit item on draven other than infinity edge.


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WhackedRak

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12-13-2012

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Originally Posted by Kalasen View Post
But the relationship between AD and crit and AS and life steal is mutual and multiplying with each other. AD does more average damage per point when you have more crit, and crit does more average damage per point when you have more AD. Same with life steal and attack speed, except with life steal it's health gained per attack. The whole reason carries build all of them is that they're multiplicative, making each other more efficient compared to stacking just one. Some of the best results I got with old executioner's were from getting berserker greaves and two doran's blades before it, giving it the stats it synergizes with. The problem wasn't that the stats didn't do much, it's that the crit is unreliable for last hitting compared to flat AD.

As for the active being good? Yes. The active was up every 20 seconds and it halved all of natural health regen, health pots, normal support heal spam, and life steal in addition to all-ins when you'd normally blow an ignite. I didn't just get it against mundo/swain/voli/whatever teams, I also got it when my enemy laner had a healer support like soraka or sona or taric, or was against a champion that often gets bloodthirster first like sivir. Intending to go executioner's also freed you up to get other summoner spells, like putting exhaust on the carry and letting the support get clairvoyance or heal: I'd rather have clairvoyance's global map awareness than ignite's bit of extra all-in damage. You don't want to blow an ignite just because the enemy is using a health pot, but you could do that all day with the executioner's active.

I am making it sound better than it really was though. Not getting the BF or pickaxe you would have gotten with that 1350 gold usually wrecked your last hitting. For that reason I didn't build it much on anyone but draven, who can keep Q going all day to last hit with. And the active wasn't ^that^ amazing, because half the heal still gets through, and the enemy often backs off when using pots or about to get healed, and sometimes you're encouraged into a bad position just to clip off that pot's healing. It was also a little shorter than standard attack range. And that DoT is simply refreshed if you keep attacking, so you often weren't getting the full 36 bonus damage per hit. Not to mention that since it pretty much replaces the bloodthirster, you end up with 100 less AD and 2% life steal in that slot late game in exchange for 15% crit and half the price.

I do like that the new one keeps your last hitting just fine when you build it. The new one's problem is that it's really stat inefficient AND doesn't build into anything. I would probably feel a lot better about the new one if it built into something end game. I would love another AD/crit item on draven other than infinity edge.
I made a point of adding last-hitting to the Pros of the new item in the original post based on your feedback. Admittedly, I did not buy the item bot lane very often until mid-late game. So thanks for all your feedback good sir.

My biggest grievance is that there are no crit+lifesteal items anymore. I would completely concur with keeping the as is item, but adding an upgrade that includes lifesteal late game. I really did enjoy picking up EC over BT in some cases. However, EC and BT being built together was probably sleeper OP for how much potential lifesteal it gave you, something that Riot is obviously trying to cut back on for adc's. I do really miss my perfect AD Jayce build though, he sorta needs Manamune now after the mana cost nerfs, but he needs to build enough crit to average 2/3 crits for his ranged W to stay amazing late game.. So now there just isn't room for BT.

You said you're looking for more crit+damage items. Have you considered Youmuus on adc's? It was a while ago when the mods at askmrrobot proved with their graphs that buying Black Cleaver(the old one) and Youmuu's gave the highest dps at the most efficient price even on ranged carries. I don't know what the equivalent would be now, but I've noticed they're working like busy bees over there.


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WhackedRak

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12-14-2012

bump


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TheLastBaron88

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12-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhackedRak View Post
I agree that it was a conflicted item that was really useful for the laning phase, but the stats were damage modifiers that don't do a whole lot until you build damage. The new one was probably redesigned to pertain to this by adding the longsword and help with the early game last-hitting problem that you mentioned. I feel like they didn't consider the ramifications of changing it though. The build path is indeed bizarre and the smaller components are competing with much better options. I don't think the active is as useful as you're making it out to be when you can just take Ignite at champion select when you're against those champs you mentioned. Is Ignite's CD long enough to warrant blowing 2k gold on an item such as this?
Yes, actually. I think so. I went up against a team with an Irelia, a Warwick, and a Volibear once. Maybe also a Tryndamere, I don't remember. Executioner's Calling (the old one) was invaluable for shutting down their teamfighting sustain. That way, I could Ignite one and throw my Active on the other, halting their health regen and taking them out of the fight.

Honestly I have no idea why they would make the Grievous Wounds duration so short on this item. It was always used to strengthen harass against high sustain champs in lane, but this basically would require you to commit to an all-in drag-out fight with them to see any use out of it. Certainly not what you need when you are trying to make a comeback in lane, which is generally why you would have bought it in the first place. They should have left it at 8 seconds, I think. It would still be a niche item, and not really OP. Certainly not compared to the current Cleaver, lmao.


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WhackedRak

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12-16-2012

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Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
Yes, actually. I think so. I went up against a team with an Irelia, a Warwick, and a Volibear once. Maybe also a Tryndamere, I don't remember. Executioner's Calling (the old one) was invaluable for shutting down their teamfighting sustain. That way, I could Ignite one and throw my Active on the other, halting their health regen and taking them out of the fight.

Honestly I have no idea why they would make the Grievous Wounds duration so short on this item. It was always used to strengthen harass against high sustain champs in lane, but this basically would require you to commit to an all-in drag-out fight with them to see any use out of it. Certainly not what you need when you are trying to make a comeback in lane, which is generally why you would have bought it in the first place. They should have left it at 8 seconds, I think. It would still be a niche item, and not really OP. Certainly not compared to the current Cleaver, lmao.
Ok, so this item might still be worth it if the enemy team has all massive sustain champs. I agree it is no longer useful as a comeback item for top lane.


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WhackedRak

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01-02-2013

Bump for great justice. Anyone who misses the old EC and still has input to give about it?