Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


AD Caster Itemization?

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerosandones

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Krueger 404:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that AD casters don't really use their AA much? For example if I play Zed I only really care about landing one AA for the passive proc, I certainly wouldn't build AS items on him.

So why are people talking about building BT and Hydra for the lifesteal? I find both items pointless on an AD caster. I'm not gunna stand and AA anyone for the lifesteal and splash, the only nice thing they have is a high AD value. Otherwise they're pointless.

As an AD caster I was under the impression what you usually want to have access too is high CDR, AD, arm pen and some spell vamp. All things which benefit using your skills, disregarding your AA's.

Personally the only AD caster items I'm seeing are the new Black Cleaver and for me the QSS upgrade is very handy too.


You're correct. Zed is a perfect example of a champion whose damage comes mostly from his skills, which don't trigger lifesteal. He really needs something with spell vamp so he can get his sustain from where his damage actually comes from.

That being said, I actually really like Hydra and SotD on him, even though they aren't completely in line with his AD caster role. The active on Hydra does silly amounts of damage because it is 100% of your AD, which gets buffed by his passive on W, and SotD gives him some massive burst while his skills are on cd. When you combo them with his ult, the hydra proc + SotD hits makes his ult's delay damage hit like a ton of bricks.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NoGoodInGoodbye

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Krueger 404:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that AD casters don't really use their AA much? For example if I play Zed I only really care about landing one AA for the passive proc, I certainly wouldn't build AS items on him.

So why are people talking about building BT and Hydra for the lifesteal? I find both items pointless on an AD caster. I'm not gunna stand and AA anyone for the lifesteal and splash, the only nice thing they have is a high AD value. Otherwise they're pointless.

As an AD caster I was under the impression what you usually want to have access too is high CDR, AD, arm pen and some spell vamp. All things which benefit using your skills, disregarding your AA's.

Personally the only AD caster items I'm seeing are the new Black Cleaver and for me the QSS upgrade is very handy too.


BT=70 damage (+30) Hydra=75 damage

When you have 300+ AD you're going to be auto-attacking between spells those two items provide the most raw damage and stats that aren't wasted. Good sustain through lifesteal and high hp/5 from hydra. Hydra also gives you a 1:1 scaling aoe nuke from it's active that you can use in your rotation. New BV and the scimitar are good though you're right.

While CDR, AD, arm pen and some spell vamp are you'd want on say Zed or Talon they would be better on say Darius, as AD casters are trying to burst someone in 1 rotation the CDR isn't as effective and as they're most likely doing their damage BEFORE they take any the SV is negligible. Whereas Darius is tanky enough to stay in the fight and rely on repeat casts to wear them down and out-trade via SV, low CD spells and being able to build tanky on top of that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Varxtis

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
NoGoodInGoodbye:
BT=70 damage (+30) Hydra=75 damage

When you have 300+ AD you're going to be auto-attacking between spells those two items provide the most raw damage and stats that aren't wasted. Good sustain through lifesteal and high hp/5 from hydra. Hydra also gives you a 1:1 scaling aoe nuke from it's active that you can use in your rotation. New BV and the scimitar are good though you're right.

While CDR, AD, arm pen and some spell vamp are you'd want on say Zed or Talon they would be better on say Darius, as AD casters are trying to burst someone in 1 rotation the CDR isn't as effective and as they're most likely doing their damage BEFORE they take any the SV is negligible. Whereas Darius is tanky enough to stay in the fight and rely on repeat casts to wear them down and out-trade via SV, low CD spells and being able to build tanky on top of that.
I highly disagree that zed does not need cooldown reduction. No thanks to 20 second shadow which is his bread and butter. Also not all ad caster's are assassins, just pointing that out.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NoGoodInGoodbye

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Varxtis:
I highly disagree that zed does not need cooldown reduction. No thanks to 20 second shadow which is his bread and butter. Also not all ad caster's are assassins, just pointing that out.


Were we not talking about Zed/Talon? Both of which get 15% CDR from ionian.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

orc72

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Amzin:
Black Cleaver is sometimes a good AD Caster item, but it's worse than Last Whisper if you don't need to help out ADs on your team. The AD Caster stats are definitely not much different than they were in Season 2. The new manamune upgrade MAYBE, but even that's only for mana ADcasters, it's useless on ones like Zed. Van Damme's Pillager on TT is an example of a nice ADCaster item, and it's tied to HoG so probably not going to see SR play, sadly.

Zephyr almost looks like one, except it has superfluous stats as well. I am excited about the new melee carry items (even though 3 of them are all in the top 5 most expensive items in the game), but bummed out not to see the ADCaster ones actually existing. Will have to see what kind of builds people come up with obviously, but at first blush it looks basically the same as before.


van dammes isnt even on twisted treeline anymore on the pbe. They completely removed it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Krueger 404:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that AD casters don't really use their AA much? For example if I play Zed I only really care about landing one AA for the passive proc, I certainly wouldn't build AS items on him.


Mentality issue. Zed is actually a perfect example of someone that would benefit from itemizing his autoattack a little, his ult doesn't ****ing care where the damage comes from as long as Zed did the damage. Jump in, drop your spells, and ****ing RIGHT CLICK. You're less valuable than your target is, so make sure your target actually dies.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Taiyodori

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Krueger 404:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that AD casters don't really use their AA much? For example if I play Zed I only really care about landing one AA for the passive proc, I certainly wouldn't build AS items on him.

So why are people talking about building BT and Hydra for the lifesteal? I find both items pointless on an AD caster. I'm not gunna stand and AA anyone for the lifesteal and splash, the only nice thing they have is a high AD value. Otherwise they're pointless.


They are building BT, cause it's the item with the single highest flat amount of AD.
In lane, it also gives you sustain. Lifesteal is - even for most AD-casters - more reliable than spellvamp would be. Take Pantheon or Talon as an example: At least HSS and Rake are AoE, which would cut the amount of SV into half. It's even worse for Riven, Garen and Zed btw.
You won't get too much HP off of spellvamp.
Even in 1v1 or ganks, you usually don't need sustain to win the fight, but rather flatout more dmg.

Ask any mage (except Vlad or Swain), whether they can sustain themselves due to a WotA in a fight.
Spell vamp is nowhere near as good to anyone than Lifesteal is for AD-Carries, because well, you can't use spells as frequently as AD-Carries can use their autoattacks. Therefore you'll never reach the same amount of HP-Regen with spellvamp only.

Quote:

As an AD caster I was under the impression what you usually want to have access too is high CDR, AD, arm pen and some spell vamp. All things which benefit using your skills, disregarding your AA's.

Personally the only AD caster items I'm seeing are the new Black Cleaver and for me the QSS upgrade is very handy too.
HP5 is some form of sustain as well, isn't it?
While Hydra gives you HP5, a good amount of AD and another active to use for your already pretty high amount of AD, there's as well some strange sort of "spellvamp", since this adctive (as well as the passive) uses the lifesteal you have. Even after all those life-steal nerfs, lifesteal is still much more accessible (with AD-Items) than spellvamp ever will be.

Otherwise, well, the new black cleaver at least is something every AD caster would like to build. Sure, last whisper gives you more dmg, but why don't you just build both?
The sole reason that it builds from brutalizer is enough to get it, isn't it?

So you have plenty of ad-possibilities:
1) Tiamat (cheap choice for quick HP5 + AD) --> Hydra
2) Brutalizer (considered the best AD-caster item) --> Black Cleaver (even gets you some tankyness with the bonus-HP)
3) Bloodthirster (yeah, I know you hate lifesteal; but it synergizes with Hydra at least)
4) Last Whisper (now synergizes with your ArPen from Brutalizer/BC)
5) Maw of Malmortius (if you need small amounts of MR)
6) Mercurial Scimiter (if you need a bigger amount of MR + cc bugging you)
[7) Spirit of the Elder Lizard (if you're jungling)]

However, I have 2 other item-suggestions that I actually miss and AD-casters would profit from a lot:
- An option with Armor + AD (no, I do not count Atma's, since you need lots of HP to actually get some AD out of it!) --> Maybe some kind of Zhonya's Hourglass, but with AD instead of AP?
- A "Lich's Bane"-like item, which's passive is based off of your total AD instead of your base AD.
Could give stats like this: +60-80 AD, MS, CDR, the Passive: "After casting a spell, your next auto-attack deals additional 100% (or even up to 150%) of your total AD as physical dmg".
- This would also be much more appealing to ad-casters than to anyone else. Why? Cause you need lots of total AD, which usually only ad-casters get. (ranged ad's prefer crit; bruisers prefer on-hit/tankyness; therefore: no tanky stats, no crit)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Taiyodori

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Bump.
Oh yeah I made a quick thread of what the above suggested item could look like.
(I know, pbe is actually not the correct place for something like this, but it seems the right time and the right place to get some attention for new crazy item-suggestions)

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31500670

Oh yeah, anyone else thinks the new Frozen Fist would as well fit into an AD-caster build, if it only would give AD instead of AP? There'd be a great synergy with the new Muramana as well.
On the other hand... half of the AD-Casters are manaless, right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Zerosandones:
I remember them mentioning that they wanted to give AD casters items that would help overcome the current gaps, but I don't see any on the PBE. Not a single AD/SV item in SR that doesn't have AP on it. Am I missing something?


AD + SV is for AD brusiers like lee sin and not for Talon.

But it is true. the amount of real end game items for AD casters like Talon (assasin) is pretty low.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Taiyodori

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Xyltin:
AD + SV is for AD brusiers like lee sin and not for Talon.

But it is true. the amount of real end game items for AD casters like Talon (assasin) is pretty low.


Key for an AD + SV item is to put in stats that bruisers most likely would not want to get.
Therefore my suggestion above. Give it an flat-AD scaling passive (like Lich's Bane, but with total AD instead of AP; maye just 80% of total AD) that Bruisers can no utilize.
Bruisers usually don't get a lot of flat-AD, so they are still better to just stick with trinity force.


123