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Spirit Stone needs a buff.

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Amzin

Recruiter

11-16-2012

But it's not a loss of power to some champs. Machete has upgrade paths... there's always going to be a choice. One is better than another for some champs. I agree that it doesn't make much sense for Spirit Stone to not be an improvement for some champs too early in the game over Machete, but for other champs it IS always an improvement, so how do you consolidate that? Just keep the 10 true damage on hit?


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Catches Axes

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
You aren't taking into account the extra 5% damage amp to your abilities (Passive, W, E) as well.

I know there's a math-y crossover point at which you need to pass in order for Spirit Stone to be higher damage in some cases due to the loss of the Rend passive. This isn't ideal, but we acknowledged this and accepted that players can opt to leave the Hunter's Machete in their inventory in order to go for other items until they feel comfortable that upgrading Spirit Stone would be a for-sure damage increase.


Seems a lot more than "not ideal", though. It seems like a newb trap. You make what looks like a good decision (you're a relatively casual player and haven't done the math, so you assume that the game designers have) that actually harms you.

Being a wrong choice because it's less optimal is one thing; being a wrong choice because you will actually become weaker is another.

Incidentally, is this the only case of losing a passive other than GP10 items from one item to its upgrade in the game?


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OgreSamanosuke

Member

11-16-2012

Statikk, it is sort of a trap right now. Even on guys where you'd think the 5% increase would pan out better, like Amumu, it ends up hurting them. He'll clear the small mobs quicker, but that also means the CD feeding on Tantrum goes down. Say you smack the blue buff 8 times before it dies to combined damage, you've lost 80 true damage that you would need at least a lv2 Tantrum to cover for, so it even outdoes the weak mana per 5 it grants, making you spend more.

I see the logic in removing Rend from the Spirit Stone path, I just personally feel it's better removed when you go to the next tier, with the 3 Spirits.

On a related note, holy jesus I love Spirit of the Ancient Golem. Not being pigeonholed into Merc Treads on tanks is a godsend. Can do goofy stuff now like the new Boots of Swiftness on Hecarim for extra pony trampling!

Quote:
Amzin:
But it's not a loss of power to some champs. Machete has upgrade paths... there's always going to be a choice. One is better than another for some champs. I agree that it doesn't make much sense for Spirit Stone to not be an improvement for some champs too early in the game over Machete, but for other champs it IS always an improvement, so how do you consolidate that? Just keep the 10 true damage on hit?

I'm curious on who possibly scales well enough that 5% dmg is better than 10 true damage per basic. Only person I can think of that might see improved damage by a 5% increase versus basic attacks doing true damage is Fiddlesticks, since he relies on Drain spam to clear. I've already personally tested Diana, Shyvana, Mundo, Lee Sin, Hecarim and Amumu in new jungle, and came to the same conclusion here, wait to jump from machete to second upgrade. (Except Lee, cause he still uses Wriggles) It's just more cost effect to get your regen stats out of a Philo Stone right now.


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Mdaha

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
OgreSamanosuke:
Statikk, it is sort of a trap right now. Even on guys where you'd think the 5% increase would pan out better, like Amumu, it ends up hurting them. He'll clear the small mobs quicker, but that also means the CD feeding on Tantrum goes down. Say you smack the blue buff 8 times before it dies to combined damage, you've lost 80 true damage that you would need at least a lv2 Tantrum to cover for, so it even outdoes the weak mana per 5 it grants, making you spend more.

I see the logic in removing Rend from the Spirit Stone path, I just personally feel it's better removed when you go to the next tier, with the 3 Spirits.

On a related note, holy jesus I love Spirit of the Ancient Golem. Not being pigeonholed into Merc Treads on tanks is a godsend. Can do goofy stuff now like the new Boots of Swiftness on Hecarim for extra pony trampling!


I did some math on Amumu and Alistar and then I gave up because it was taking too long, and the effort isn't really worth it. Amumu with Spirit Stone did not surpass Amumu with Hunter's Machete till level 9, Alistar didn't pass till level 15.


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Mdaha

Member

11-16-2012

Here is the thing that I don't think you really are thinking about Statikk. At 100 AD you need to do another 100 damage from spells per auto attack. That would mean that with say .7 attack speed you would have to do 700 spell damage in 10 seconds to break even. I think that is the main problem. Most champions are going to get their spells off 1 - 2 times a camp, do you see why I am raising concern? Which tanky character does 700 damage in 10 seconds with spells, and has 100 AD?


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
You aren't taking into account the extra 5% damage amp to your abilities (Passive, W, E) as well.

I know there's a math-y crossover point at which you need to pass in order for Spirit Stone to be higher damage in some cases due to the loss of the Rend passive. This isn't ideal, but we acknowledged this and accepted that players can opt to leave the Hunter's Machete in their inventory in order to go for other items until they feel comfortable that upgrading Spirit Stone would be a for-sure damage increase.


How about giving spirit stone still 5 true dmg per AA?
The upgraded versions lose that 5 true dmg.

Madred's instead still gets 5% more dmg against jungle monsters.
Wriggles will lose that stat then.

(maybe even 3/3% would be enough)


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Mdaha

Member

11-16-2012

Come back Statikk, we're not through here!


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Mdaha:
Come back Statikk, we're not through here!


Yeah.

I don't find a jungle champ except for K'Z where the spirit stone is an upgrade before lvl 9.
And K'Z needs his Q evolved first, lvl 6 and to clear all small creeps to profit from it.

We actually need a solution on how to handle things.
Is it intended that you take the Machete and don't upgrade it till you got around 2-3 other items?
Or are you ok with tweaking it?

I think that the 15 and 20% on the items are pretty solid late game. But early and mid game they are not worth it. And i think it was intended to make these jungle items early to mid game items.


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Nilous7

Senior Member

11-16-2012

I'm gonna bump this, cause I would like to see where it ends up.

And the only Champ I think that would be better off with the spirit stone, would be Ramus, if he's using his spike shell. And even then, he probably is still doing more damage from 10 true damage each auto attack than 105% per retributive spike.


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Mdaha

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Xyltin:
Yeah.

I don't find a jungle champ except for K'Z where the spirit stone is an upgrade before lvl 9.
And K'Z needs his Q evolved first, lvl 6 and to clear all small creeps to profit from it.

We actually need a solution on how to handle things.
Is it intended that you take the Machete and don't upgrade it till you got around 2-3 other items?
Or are you ok with tweaking it?

I think that the 15 and 20% on the items are pretty solid late game. But early and mid game they are not worth it. And i think it was intended to make these jungle items early to mid game items.


Honestly, 20% early game would make it worth it. At 100 AD it would break even, that means at 75 AD where a lot of people would be close to when able to upgrade it, their spells would have to do 250 damage from non auto attacks to break even(using .7 attack speed over 10 seconds).