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Less Gold in New Jungle

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Enterti

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We intend for the first clear to be both slower and more difficult (these 2 often go hand in hand).

We don't intend for the overall first clear's gold to be much less than it was before even if it is taking longer.

At the end of the day, we're looking to gauge the impact and power level junglers have on the early game overall not necessarily just gold flow.

One of the stated goals of the new jungle was to enable more carrylike junglers such as Yi and Tryndamere. If they are not getting more gold in the new jungle than they could in the current one then how is this going to help them?


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McNaulty

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Enterti:
One of the stated goals of the new jungle was to enable more carrylike junglers such as Yi and Tryndamere. If they are not getting more gold in the new jungle than they could in the current one then how is this going to help them?


Indeed, please explain.


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Bullettime7

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
McNaulty:
Indeed, please explain.


Some junglers like the carry oriented ones need items to operate well. They were going to increase the power of jungle camps between S1 and S2 while subsequently increased the gold acquisition rates of junglers so other junglers could be viable and actually obtain the items they need, such as Tryndamere and Yi,

The problem is that in the jungle on the PBE, it's a mix of the bad attributes of S1 and S2, not the good like they intended. There's little incentive to actually clear the jungle since the new jungle camps still give less gold than they do on the live game, while losing certain gold supplements like Heart of Gold. Statikk claimed that the ambient effect would offset it but it didn't do a thing. The jungle meta game is no different than it is on live; do a first clear then gank lanes nonstop, only killing a camp if there's no gank shots. There's no incentive to farm the jungle after the first clear which is one of the key selling points of the new jungle and was their way to revive Fiddlesticks and Warwick.

At the moment, it feels like junglers have been overall nerfed and have less variety than before due to the increased jungle damage making some current popular picks a lotttttt weaker.


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Enterti

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Bullettime7:
Some junglers like the carry oriented ones need items to operate well. They were going to increase the power of jungle camps between S1 and S2 while subsequently increased the gold acquisition rates of junglers so other junglers could be viable and actually obtain the items they need, such as Tryndamere and Yi,

The problem is that in the jungle on the PBE, it's a mix of the bad attributes of S1 and S2, not the good like they intended. There's little incentive to actually clear the jungle since the new jungle camps still give less gold than they do on the live game, while losing certain gold supplements like Heart of Gold. Statikk claimed that the ambient effect would offset it but it didn't do a thing. The jungle meta game is no different than it is on live; do a first clear then gank lanes nonstop, only killing a camp if there's no gank shots. There's no incentive to farm the jungle after the first clear which is one of the key selling points of the new jungle.

At the moment, it feels like junglers have been overall nerfed and have less variety than before due to the increased jungle damage making some current popular picks a lotttttt weaker.

Thats exactly what I mean.


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Bullettime7

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Additional note to go with my previous post that's up two posts.

In the end, people are still going to be going to be doing nothing but taking gank junglers like Lee Sin and Maokai and bush camping. All the current implementation has done is bring back the difficult camps of S1 that limits pick choices while also maintaining the current model of low jungle income. It's just unrewarding to farm the jungle, defeating the main purpose of the jungle revamp as a whole. it's not going to slow down gameplay or stop level 2 ganks.. The current jungle gold income is just going to encourage that play even more and push people more towards gank junglers than ever.


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50mm3r

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Screw level 2 ganks on the lanes, im killing the lit jungler at lvl 2 on their red XD


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Varys

Member

11-16-2012

Statikk I don't think you understand, lowering the gold will make people want to gank instead of farm. They still get the passive gold flow, what's the point of farming?

If you want farming to be effective make it better at all points in the game.


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McNaulty

Senior Member

11-16-2012

I mean I agree. How can a carry jungler be buffed when the jungle actually has less gold.


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Bullettime7

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Adamater:
Statikk I don't think you understand, lowering the gold will make people want to gank instead of farm. They still get the passive gold flow, what's the point of farming?

If you want farming to be effective make it better at all points in the game.


Yup. If I'm still going to partake in the increased ambient gold flow while jungle camps are more dangerous without a proportional gold gain, there's no incentive to play a farming jungler over a gank jungler. Then with the removal of HoG, jungler gold income is lower than it was in S2 while being more difficult to farm.

You're better off bush camping with minimum farming instead of mass farming and subjecting yourself to the dangers of invasion and possible deaths. Gank junglers are going to be more popular than ever (Lee Sin, Maokai, Nautilus, and Amumu) while farming and counterjungle oriented junglers are going to be less effective than they currently already are (Udyr, Warwick, Nunu, Shyvana.)


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

11-16-2012

Quote:
Montegomery:
If you follow the "standard" route (Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Red->Wolves->Golems) the raw value of the camps on Live is 405g versus the PBE's 382g. However, since it takes at least 2-2.5 minutes to clear the extra 36-45g you get passively should make up the difference.

At this point I'm perfectly satisfied that the numbers check out. I don't want to impose on you, but if you could also disclose the gold/exp scaling on the small camps it would save me a weekend of trouble attempting to find the exact numbers myself through testing.

The jungle isn't getting nerfed relative to laning as lane values also decreased, while jungle scaling has substantially increased. If anything junglers should be able to better keep up with lanes nows.

The scaling of both gold and experience per minute is currently set at ~+50%. These numbers are subject to change, but I want you guys to see if you can get a better idea.

So if Big Wolf used to gain +10 gold and +5 XP to its base rewards per minute, it would roughly now gain +15 gold and +7.5 XP now. Just an example, don't really have the time to compile all the exact numbers. Working on fixing the current PBE bugs like jungle monsters attacking untargetable minions.