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Less Gold in New Jungle

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GhostStalker

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We intend for the first clear to be both slower and more difficult (these 2 often go hand in hand).

We don't intend for the overall first clear's gold to be much less than it was before even if it is taking longer.

At the end of the day, we're looking to gauge the impact and power level junglers have on the early game overall not necessarily just gold flow.


Why are you guys so hellbent on destroying junglers super early ganks? Isn't making sure you can't jungle with starting boots going to eliminate that? All these other anti-superearlygankjungler changes just seem to be overkill.

I'm not that experienced of a jungler, but I was just starting to get into it, and now I'm thinking I should just stay away from it since you're nerfing the **** out of it.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying.

On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.

This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.

From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.


Ok, that makes way more sense now. that would actually help junglers after the first clear. Will have to see how it works out after 5-10 min then.


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junglehead

Member

11-16-2012

So s1 jungle is hard and broken(could easily snowball)...s2 jungle is easy but lacks gold/xp(can't snowball very well in it)...s3? They say its like a combination of s1 and s2=Hard but lacks gold/xp. Am I missing something?


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Vrakus

Junior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
Awesome.

Well if the numbers still aren't working out. I'm happy to throw the right amount of gold back onto the monsters to fix the issue.

Thanks for bringing up this concern.


Assuming chain clearing, the jungler is only ahead ~6 gold per minute vs live with probably 50-70 gold more than live due to scaling at 7-8 minutes. But, on live the jungler is waaaay behind on gold, and now can't rely on ganks before lvl 4-5 at all due to the lack of boots and increased camp damage. One of the stated goals was to make the jungler comparably farmed to lane gold and comparably leveled to lanes as well. 6 gold per minute and <100 gold from scaling before lane phase is over, and the jungler no longer gets to farm isn't going to make that happen, especially when the laners also get the extra passive gold.

Another consideration is that HoG was removed, which is 30 gold per minute. Philo was heavily nerfed, and spirit stone replaces it's sustain capabilities. So, rather than making carry junglers viable, the changes nerf jungle gold even more, and remove low damage, tank junglers as options replacing them with high sustain junglers like fiddle and WW. Add to having to go machete +5, you lose an additional 70 gp on pots vs boots +3.

Hell, even fast clearing junglers like Shyv have a hard time. Starting machete +5 pots my first clear w/ Shyv left me <70 hp and lvl 3.99 (wraiths, red, golems, wolves, blue). I bet Mundo can't even fully clear, but I have yet to try him on PBE. EDIT: I underestimated Mundo's Passive. The longer clear time gives him enough regen to keep up, but he's still low after a full clear. ~120 hp, which is comparable to my Hecarim clear hp.


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ninjainjury

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We intend for the first clear to be both slower and more difficult (these 2 often go hand in hand).

We don't intend for the overall first clear's gold to be much less than it was before even if it is taking longer.

At the end of the day, we're looking to gauge the impact and power level junglers have on the early game overall not necessarily just gold flow.

so you want to make it much less likely for junglers to get early gold from ganks, have them clear slower for the same gold farming, and be more reliant on spending their meager amount of gold on jungle specific items.

again i don't see how this isn't a straight up nerf to every champ that jungles regardless of how they prioritize ganking and farming.


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KesslerCOIL

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
GhostStalker86:
Why are you guys so hellbent on destroying junglers super early ganks? Isn't making sure you can't jungle with starting boots going to eliminate that? All these other anti-superearlygankjungler changes just seem to be overkill.

I'm not that experienced of a jungler, but I was just starting to get into it, and now I'm thinking I should just stay away from it since you're nerfing the **** out of it.

Because level 2 ganks have a tendency to be more toxic(evelynn syndrome) by forcing to laners to play too safe until they know where the jungler is.

The changes they made, also made champions such as Fiddlesticks and Warwick, more viable since they need both more farm and have average/below average ganks before lvl6.
By making lvl2 ganks less the norm, they made champions that suck at lvl2 ganks more the norm.


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KesslerCOIL

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Vrakus:
Assuming chain clearing, the jungler is only ahead ~6 gold per minute vs live with probably 50-70 gold more than live due to scaling at 7-8 minutes. But, on live the jungler is waaaay behind on gold, and now can't rely on ganks before lvl 4-5 at all due to the lack of boots and increased camp damage. One of the stated goals was to make the jungler comparably farmed to lane gold and comparably leveled to lanes as well. 6 gold per minute and <100 gold from scaling before lane phase is over, and the jungler no longer gets to farm isn't going to make that happen, especially when the laners also get the extra passive gold.

Another consideration is that HoG was removed, which is 30 gold per minute. Philo was heavily nerfed, and spirit stone replaces it's sustain capabilities. So, rather than making carry junglers viable, the changes nerf jungle gold even more, and remove low damage, tank junglers as options replacing them with high sustain junglers like fiddle and WW. Add to having to go machete +5, you lose an additional 70 gp on pots vs boots +3.

Hell, even fast clearing junglers like Shyv have a hard time. Starting machete +5 pots my first clear w/ Shyv left me <70 hp and lvl 3.99 (wraiths, red, golems, wolves, blue). I bet Mundo can't even fully clear, but I have yet to try him on PBE.

I agree with everything here but the last part.
Fast clearers got nerfed so that they couldnt lvl2/3 gank even with the harder mobs, this is good. It forces the player to either play a sustained clearer with an average gank or a fast clearer that has to recall after the first clear.


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MacVane

Junior Member

11-16-2012

Seems as if the pressure has been taking off lanes completely and putting it all on jungles making it a game of Russian Roulette praying to the sweet Riot gods that nobody is just waiting to destroy you as you brave this suicide run through the first clear.


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Pvt Piledriver

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
lagNZ:
I agree with everything here but the last part.
Fast clearers got nerfed so that they couldnt lvl2/3 gank even with the harder mobs, this is good. It forces the player to either play a sustained clearer with an average gank or a fast clearer that has to recall after the first clear.

Except that one of the major advantages of having a fast clear speed is now gone, and so one of the main reasons for using one no longer exists. There's not much of a choice there.


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squidbert

Member

11-16-2012

Does this even prevent lvl 2 ganks? Is the XP from Wolves and Blue not enough enough XP for level 2? I don't see how this stops level 2 ganks unless the damage you take from wolves and blue is considerably more. Or are level 2 ganks not reasonable anymore because you can't start boots?