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Less Gold in New Jungle

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squidbert

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
DJay Saint:
The problem is, all these changes do is make the new jungle harder and less rewarding. You get LESS gold now in the new jungle than you do in the current jungle, and you have LESS opportunity to gank because the camps are harder and deal more damage to you. So now you lose even MORE income because you can't gank early.

Basically I see Warwick as a jungler and very few others. This doesn't make more junglers viable, it just reinforces the gp10 tank jungler meta because you still get starved for farm while jungling. So the only way to stay relevant to the game is try to build tanky and have cc to initiate or peel in team fights, being completely unable to do anything else. This means all the damage dealer junglers are screwed over yet again. I'm sick of having to spend my very little, hard earned gold on an Aegis and 2 gp10s for a couple wards here and there.

Junglers are almost as bad as supports because after the first clear, your jungle isn't even yours anymore. The rest of your team pushes up their wave to the tower and farms your jungle. I don't see these changes alleviating that at all. In fact with the removal of Heart of Gold, I just see junglers getting hurt even more now than they were before.

I'm literally not going to jungle anymore because it's not fun being starved for gold all game long and being FORCED to spend what little money you have on gp10s to get a very minute benefit late in the game, and then spending the rest of your gold on wards and team aura items because they are the only efficient items you can buy while still trying desperately to remain useful in the game.


This is a real threat I think of the new jungle. It could be a mass extinction of characters who in S2 can really only jungle and in the S3 jungle have no role.

The goal of this whole push is conceptually troubling because they want to deemphasize ganking which is the fun aspect of jungling and replace it with dying to jungle creeps which is obviously the unfun aspect of the jungling. One would think they would want to make jungling more dynamic (maybe add more contested jungle space or something). Couple that with less mid game viability because you're below level and behind on items and it doesn't sound super exciting being a jungle in S3.

The only refuge of fun in jungling will be counter jungling if this occurs though that isn't boring for sure.


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KesslerCOIL

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented.

I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that.

Are you sure about this?
Because i did a full clear of the jungle once on Live and PBE and ended up with 13-15 more gold on live.
And thats not even considering the fact that it takes longer to kill the jungle on PBE.

EDIT: Redid it. 501g upon complete clear on PBE
514g upon complete clear on Live


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Dragull2

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Laferge:
Agree with what you said. Jungle looks on first look as it gives you more money as some items (mandreds) are cheaper but truth is opposite. Too much effort not enough reward.

lol, remember Diablo 3 quote: too much pain, not enough profit.


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Sephïroth

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Xyltin:
He said that the base G/10 that every champ has increased and so they reduced the early gold in the jungle to make it even (that's how i understood it).

Problem: Laners get more gold probably (didn't see any reduce in lane gold and laners get the same base G/10).


Thank you, didn't realize he meant it that way.

Though, it does seem like a roughshot for those junglers who have to perform in order to succeed, because it leaves even less room for failure.

In the end, I guess we need to play it and see, but telling me I'll get even less gold from the jungle when my item set is already junk for what I receive from jungle farm, just really jabs me in the side.

Especially because my Eve build is usually pretty expensive (Sheen->Defensive item->Trinity -> Situational) Just getting a Trinity finished after I build Randiuns, GA, or whatever is usually pretty rare - winning or losing.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Scaoil:
Not to mention any stats that affect only jungle mobs(machete and upgrades) leave the jungler behind other champions in the game with similar gold values. Even supports get useful stats for their gold(sans ward costs which riot is addressing anyway)..


Jungle items are overall a bit cheaper, but you are still right.
A lot of gold goes into stats that don't help you ganking or fighting against other champs. They can't be that gold effective to make up for that.

A jungler needs at least as much gold as a laner, to be able to compete with them. They already get a bit less XP than solo lanes. And then they use some money on jungle stats. So they will always be a tick weaker, even when when make it even.

I actually feel that my jungle GP does get more gold, but not that he is stronger than in the S2 jungle till the 15 min mark. And jungle GP was not really the one to go in S2 after his nerfs.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

11-16-2012

Quote:
Montegomery:
When you say ambient gold increased do you mean that champions now get more than 14 gp10 (84g per minute) passively?

For your reference Statikk, here are some numbers I took past the first clear with exact camp spawn times, compared to what their values would have been on live.

PBE:
  • Wolves (@8:02): 44g/5g (54g Total)
  • Wraiths (@8:21): 28g/3g (37g Total)
  • Golems (@8:50): 51g/17g (68g Total)

Live:
  • Wolves (@8:02): 47g/5g (56g Total)
  • Wraiths (@8:21): 37g/4g (49g Total)
  • Golems (@8:50): 43g/16g (59g Total)

So even after 7 minutes of scaling the PBE is still behind live by 5g per clear. This is really my chief concern, if you want farming the new jungle to be worthwhile it shouldn't remain behind Live during the period where a jungler will most likely be able to farm. Past ~12:00 game time towers start to fall and the demand for map presence alongside the potential reduced safety of the jungle make farming less likely.

I did notice the PBE buff camps were worth 3g more each than on Live, but this is a once every 5 minute windfall and past the first clear the jungler will typically pass blue to mid anyway.

Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying.

On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.

This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.

From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.


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getonmehlvl

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying.

On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.

This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.

From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.

If it's not on PBE you guys need to put it on ASAP. It's hard to do balancing when everything isn't on the PBE.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

11-16-2012

Here's the current value we have the ambient gold change at:

Ambient Gold increased to 16 Gold per 10 from 13 Gold per 10

Even though this may not be on PBE at the moment, please take this into account if you want to do the theoretical calculations.


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Montegomery

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying.

On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.

This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.

From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.


That's what I was getting at when I asked "When you say ambient gold increased do you mean that champions now get more than 14 gp10 (84g per minute) passively?" Edit: Although it appears 14 gp10 is wrong.

I thought my numbers might be useful regardless in case jungle scaling might also be off the mark, though it's obviously greater on the PBE than it is on Live.

Quote:
Statikk:
Here's the current value we have the ambient gold change at:

Ambient Gold increased to 16 Gold per 10 from 13 Gold per 10

Please take this into account if you want to do the calculations.


I can tell immediately that makes up the difference. I'll update the first post accordingly.


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McNaulty

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying.

On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.

This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.

From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.



I just want to point out that increased passive gold generation makes lane camping more effective, rather than less effective. I would also point out that making farming more viable (as opposed to lane camping) was one of the stated goals of the remake.