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Less Gold in New Jungle

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DJay Saint

Senior Member

11-16-2012

So basically this is a punishment for junglers who don't build gp10s?

I've been wanting to play carry junglers more instead of tanky/support junglers, but it sucks being FORCED to have to build gp10s and build tanky just so you can be even somewhat useful in the game later. Even damage dealers like Nocturne are forced to build gp10s and go just tanky because they become irrelevant in the game (they take too much damage and don't deal enough because of lack of farm). That is exactly why ap junglers don't get played, because the jungle gold is just awful and you need farm to be useful.

When are junglers going to actually be rewarded for jungling? Their early game pressure was reduced by a lot, and now their farm was even nerfed.


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squidbert

Member

11-16-2012

Chain clearing is supposed to be harder. The jungle is supposed to be dangerous.

Here's how I think it's supposed to work. It's supposed to be hard to keep up with the jungle respawn timers. If you're a character that can do it, you have a leg up because you can now gank or counter jungle more successfully. If you're a jungle that can't keep up because you have to back more often, well then you're in the boat of most junglers who won't be able to apply as much pressure to lanes.

If the limiting factor is the respawn rates of the camps for most champions, than there probably is a problem. If you struggle to keep up with the camps because you have to go back more often, then I think the jungle is working more as the envisioned.

The balancing act has to be will junglers who can't clear the camps efficiently get played at all. The goal is to add more junglers, not remove junglers, from viability. It'll be interesting to test for sure. Sadly my main jungler is Naut and I think he's likely to suck in this new jungle. Can't wait to test it.


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Mjd24

Senior Member

11-16-2012

So, you gatta kill all the jungle creeps once to make their gold value go up?
As in like, the most gold efficient clears will always go
Wraith/Wolves into Blue/Red then to Wraith/Wolves/ then back to whatever you killed first, then to the other buff, then back to whatever you killed third, then gold golems(based on whether or not bot killed them upon spawning)?


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented.

I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that.


you need longer to clear the jungle, so you will also get less XP early game.
you will also get less gold per min cause you need longer (around 20-30 sec longer to clear).

I like that the jungle is harder and closer to S1 again. But You can't jungle without a some help with most junglers. And even then it will be pretty risky. If they warded and the mid laner comes in at the right time, you will be dead from 1-2 casts.

The clear speed seems to be pretty ok with the slight increase. But that you need to prevent that much dmg from jungle monsters to be able to get through it is not ok.
No pre lvl 4 gank is ok. But being at 10-20% HP and having no pots after a full lvl 4 clear (double wraiths) is a bit too low.
30-40% HP should be in there.

And fiddle the fastest and safest early game jungler?
No pots needed. needs to wait at wraiths. 4:00 clear for lvl 4. Stonewall beat his Lee Sin and WW with Fiddle. How can that be?
I also realized that wriggles is not really that great compared to the other jungle items. It gives a ward, but the proc needs luck (you have to stop at 400 HP to give the blue away).
But maybe it is only that champs that would like to take wriggles have such problems.
K'Z is pretty damn fast in the jungle after the first lvls. the 20% extra dmg makes him scary. Same with fiddle.
But the wriggles proc doesn't feel that good (especially late game).


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Sephïroth

Senior Member

11-16-2012

So you're saying in order to jungle in the new jungle, we'll need to purchase GP10 or we'll fall behind until the game's about to end?

I know its common place now for junglers to grab GP items because the jungle alone will not sustain your gold needs. Though, I on Evelynn typically will rush an early sheen (I know AD Eve, everyone says that until they play with me) for the extra damage, and after that GP usually seem a waste of time, though I may grab one after that.

It seems to me like the base values should be raised just a slight bit so the scaling kicks in a little earlier. Right now, without ganks going well you will usually reach level 6 at the same time as bottom. A lane sharing experience.

I kind of feel like that's right, though. Because you do not want a jungler ganking a solo lane being a higher level than a well farmed lane. Though, if you allow the jungler to get much further behind, he will start to suffer.

As with my Eve, I worry about it a lot because if she gets behind she will spend a lot of time catching up.

Just my 2 cents.


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DJay Saint

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
squidbert:
Chain clearing is supposed to be harder. The jungle is supposed to be dangerous.

Here's how I think it's supposed to work. It's supposed to be hard to keep up with the jungle respawn timers. If you're a character that can do it, you have a leg up because you can now gank or counter jungle more successfully. If you're a jungle that can't keep up because you have to back more often, well then you're in the boat of most junglers who won't be able to apply as much pressure to lanes.

If the limiting factor is the respawn rates of the camps for most champions, than there probably is a problem. If you struggle to keep up with the camps because you have to go back more often, then I think the jungle is working more as the envisioned.

The balancing act has to be will junglers who can't clear the camps efficiently get played at all. The goal is to add more junglers, not remove junglers, from viability. It'll be interesting to test for sure. Sadly my main jungler is Naut and I think he's likely to suck in this new jungle. Can't wait to test it.


The problem is, all these changes do is make the new jungle harder and less rewarding. You get LESS gold now in the new jungle than you do in the current jungle, and you have LESS opportunity to gank because the camps are harder and deal more damage to you. So now you lose even MORE income because you can't gank early.

Basically I see Warwick as a jungler and very few others. This doesn't make more junglers viable, it just reinforces the gp10 tank jungler meta because you still get starved for farm while jungling. So the only way to stay relevant to the game is try to build tanky and have cc to initiate or peel in team fights, being completely unable to do anything else. This means all the damage dealer junglers are screwed over yet again. I'm sick of having to spend my very little, hard earned gold on an Aegis and 2 gp10s for a couple wards here and there.

Junglers are almost as bad as supports because after the first clear, your jungle isn't even yours anymore. The rest of your team pushes up their wave to the tower and farms your jungle. I don't see these changes alleviating that at all. In fact with the removal of Heart of Gold, I just see junglers getting hurt even more now than they were before.

I'm literally not going to jungle anymore because it's not fun being starved for gold all game long and being FORCED to spend what little money you have on gp10s to get a very minute benefit late in the game, and then spending the rest of your gold on wards and team aura items because they are the only efficient items you can buy while still trying desperately to remain useful in the game.


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Noric

Senior Member

11-16-2012

@Statikk - It is very hard to have increasing rewards balance out weak gold starts for a jungler because early end of laning phase(or just greedy laners during laning phase) means that a jungler no longer has access to their own resources. Furthermore - you are not accounting for an extra 70 gold lost 1st clear for buying 5 potions instead of 3(or 140 less than starting regrowth/longsword 1 pot used to leave you).

I had a game yesterday where as a jungler i was ~24 cs and 3 kills(even assists) above a teammate but only had an advantage of 500 gold.


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Montegomery

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented.

I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that.


When you say ambient gold increased do you mean that champions now get more than 14 gp10 (84g per minute) passively?

For your reference Statikk, here are some numbers I took past the first clear with exact camp spawn times, compared to what their values would have been on live.

PBE:
  • Wolves (@8:02): 44g/5g (54g Total)
  • Wraiths (@8:21): 28g/3g (37g Total)
  • Golems (@8:50): 51g/17g (68g Total)

Live:
  • Wolves (@8:02): 47g/5g (56g Total)
  • Wraiths (@8:21): 37g/4g (49g Total)
  • Golems (@8:50): 43g/16g (59g Total)

So even after 7 minutes of scaling the PBE is still behind live by 5g per clear. This is really my chief concern, if you want farming the new jungle to be worthwhile it shouldn't remain behind Live during the period where a jungler will most likely be able to farm. Past ~12:00 game time towers start to fall and the demand for map presence alongside the potential reduced safety of the jungle make farming less likely.

I did notice the PBE buff camps were worth 3g more each than on Live, but this is a once every 5 minute windfall and past the first clear the jungler will typically pass blue to mid anyway.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Reimie:
So you're saying in order to jungle in the new jungle, we'll need to purchase GP10 or we'll fall behind until the game's about to end?

I know its common place now for junglers to grab GP items because the jungle alone will not sustain your gold needs. Though, I on Evelynn typically will rush an early sheen (I know AD Eve, everyone says that until they play with me) for the extra damage, and after that GP usually seem a waste of time, though I may grab one after that.

It seems to me like the base values should be raised just a slight bit so the scaling kicks in a little earlier. Right now, without ganks going well you will usually reach level 6 at the same time as bottom. A lane sharing experience.

I kind of feel like that's right, though. Because you do not want a jungler ganking a solo lane being a higher level than a well farmed lane. Though, if you allow the jungler to get much further behind, he will start to suffer.

As with my Eve, I worry about it a lot because if she gets behind she will spend a lot of time catching up.

Just my 2 cents.


He said that the base G/10 that every champ has increased and so they reduced the early gold in the jungle to make it even (that's how i understood it).

Problem: Laners get more gold probably (didn't see any reduce in lane gold and laners get the same base G/10).


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Noric

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Xyltin:

Problem: Laners get more gold probably (didn't see any reduce in lane gold and laners get the same base G/10).

Not to mention any stats that affect only jungle mobs(machete and upgrades) leave the jungler behind other champions in the game with similar gold values. Even supports get useful stats for their gold(sans ward costs which riot is addressing anyway)..