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Less Gold in New Jungle

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NenSense

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
KevinDelMarr:
I still don't see why a Champion would want to prioritize farming over ganking. The ambient gold increase just allows ganking junglers to be not hit as hard by camping a lane. Before if you camped a lane you would get 26 gold in 20 seconds, now you get even more in the same time? While farming junglers get a boost, ganking junglers get a boost as well, which I thought Riot was trying to avoid. I just don't see how ganking/support Junglers will be a less viable option. I do like how AD jungler like Kha'zix get a boost, but I still feel like ganking will be the preferred way to go.

Counter jungling should have more of an emphasis I guess. Clearing the enemy jungle will have less of an impact compared to before, since now you get more gold without having to farm. I'm waiting for some more Stonewall008 jungling videos before I make final judgements (on Jungler health and time after lvl1-4 clears), but I'm not currently seeing early and constant pressure having less of an impact. I don't have all the facts, just my recent observations and beliefs.


Ganking junglers got nerfed indirectly because they can no longer gank bot lane as easily limiting their options due to the new item that essentially gives free wards which most supports will rush early on (this is my hypothesis based on the current trend of supports providing the majority of wards). If this happens top and mid will buy wards more frequently because they get ganked more frequently since bot lane which is now permanently warded is harder to gank meaning that all lanes are now more likely to have wards = tougher time successfully ganking although you can still apply pressure without successful ganks and ganks will be most effective before the opponent goes back to base to buy wards (within the first 10 minutes or so) after that you will have a hard time finding a lane that hasnt spotted you coming.

Also counter jungle can set the opponent back even more due to better scaling although its more likely to put you further ahead than it is to put the enemy further behind.


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Scrulox

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Just did a jungle run as Mundo in a match earlier. It turns out that Riots is right. The gold amount from farming the jungle in the long run is increased relatively to lane. So if you are a jungler, assuming similar kill and assist number, as long as you farm the jungle as much as you can(kill them as soon as they spawn), your total end-game gold should normally be at second or third place of your team.


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zarbiz

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Ambient gold is higher, lane and jungle minions are down - SUPPORT BUFF! Finally, GD can relax.


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Conkledurp

Junior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Ganking junglers got nerfed indirectly because they can no longer gank bot lane as easily limiting their options due to the new item that essentially gives free wards which most supports will rush early on (this is my hypothesis based on the current trend of supports providing the majority of wards). If this happens top and mid will buy wards more frequently because they get ganked more frequently since bot lane which is now permanently warded is harder to gank meaning that all lanes are now more likely to have wards = tougher time successfully ganking although you can still apply pressure without successful ganks and ganks will be most effective before the opponent goes back to base to buy wards (within the first 10 minutes or so) after that you will have a hard time finding a lane that hasnt spotted you coming.


This doesn't effect junglers that can gank outside of ward range i.e Nocturne


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ScarletDeviI

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Problem 1 : Early game jungle is much harder, you need to buy more pots to survive through it on average (Costs more gold), gives slightly less\equal gold. This also means snowballing through ganks is much harder.

Problem 2 : Almost all junglers are forced to start with a item that does not have any stats that help fighting enemy champions.

Problem 3 : Said item turns into other items which have alot of their cost built into damage amp on jungle creeps, this delays builds and makes the jungler use gold just to farm faster\more effeciently.

Problem 4 : Jungle gives better gold around the time where lanes start beginning to farm jungle creeps for themselves.

Problem 5 : Teams that are ahead later into the game will snowball even harder now due to double jungle access

Problem 6 : Using the excuse that lane gold was also decreased is iffy, as S2 jungle gave such a extreme amount less gold then lanes that carry junglers where a complete and utter joke for the most part. (Unless they snowballed from lane kills\global objectives, etc)

Problem 7 : When you chose to just farm the jungle, you are not influencing the map at all. A laner is always there preventing the enemy team (or at least trying to) from taking the tower.

TL;DR : Im not very happy with the new jungle =<


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Vulking

Senior Member

11-18-2012

- Make jungle harder
- Dont increase the gold on the time frame where junlging is relevant
- Expect to reduce gank camping

I'm the only one that see the issue here? there is less incentive to jungle now. before people camped lanes to gank because the gold income of the jungle was ****, now people will camp lanes because the gold is **** and the jungle is harder.


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Dragonsafe

Senior Member

11-18-2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTcR7b_tB0

^stonewall's video just showing the amount of gold in the new jungle is about the same as old jungle up to 11 minutes.

But notice that the monsters are much much harder (as shyv he drops to <200hp and uses 5 pots in the first clear) meaning most junglers are much more prone to counter jungling from lanes...

I could see myself abusing this as blue side solo top running into the purple jungle and grabbing a free 2 hit kill.
Combine potential counter jungling, reduced clear speeds which result in lower xp, and the same gold gain as before any jungler who cannot sustain well enough or clear fast enough in the jungle will probably be forced to lane (Lee sin, shyvana, mundo, naut, sej, hec, mumu, etc).

On a side note, shaco seems to be a much stronger pick because of this.


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Krampus Claus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Lazreal:
Buy the Avarice blade early... its so good from AD junglers like Hecarim and Shyvanna


I mean, they could still stand to increase jungle gold, but I do wholeheartedly agree here. Get someone to go TF mid, then jungle Investment Plank.


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BiiVii

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I have gotten to jungle several games on PBE now and I feel like there really isn't much of a gold gain. From my own experience, from OP here and a few other sources pointed out (see link below) there isn't much gold in the beginning and it doesn't seem to get better. I noticed a slight change in the 10-20 minute zone but it doesn't feel like enough, for a lot of reasons.

1. Past 10 minutes is when a lot of objectives start being taken and lane imbalances need to be solved or taken advantage of. Dragon is of importance and people are trying to take out the enemy tower. There is not a lot of time to jungle here and I don't think that is going to change in the future. The gold gain here is also still not that great, with golems being the only one that gives a good amount of gold. I think the gold increase needs to happen sooner, and maybe give a teeny bit more gold. It's hard to tell at this point since most games on PBE are a mess, but my snap judgement says there needs to be more.

2. Most of the 'camping' on live seems to happen in the 6-11 minute time frame and I don't think thats going to change; that is the best time to swing the balance of a lane. If the incentives do not go up to jungle then I fear we're just going to see even more of that, which makes these jungle changes not very effective.

Experience feels good though; I find myself at solo lane experience pretty frequently, which is just awesome. The damage is also great; it feels very unsafe and I have been able to walk into the enemy jungle a handful of times and catch them low and kill them. In that respect it feels like duelist/control jungling feels worth it, just not farm jungling.

On another side note, I feel like some of the spirit stones upgrades are not very worth it. Madreds/wriggles also still feels like the best choice for most melee junglers, though adding the true damage thing on machete to it like you guys said could even that out.


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Kaburagi Kotetsu

Member

11-19-2012

I have a question for everyone who wants to think about it:
What do you guys think about the removal of the "bank" system?

I think that in season 2 we could go and gank and then come back and still have gold, but I don't know if this will be possible now. I mean, we could spend some time outside the jungle and that would not hurt us so much, but I think this will change now.
And what if that change make us have to choose between (and this is just hyphotetical) helping lanes early and have no farm at all or not helping lanes and try to have a strong late game?
It seens that this choice will become much harder to make now, even more if you're in solo queue. But as I said, that's just hyphotetical and I wanted to know what you guys think about it.

Edit: Riot, is there any chance that this system will come back if people want it?