@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

First Riot Post
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HeyLPG

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
Will this fishy design warrant a price change that the design team feels is reasonable?


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Miserabilia

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Joke made by red, crisis averted. Any and all concerns now invalidated.


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PalestineBeFree

Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.

IronStylus you beautiful ******* XD


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ArmySquirrel

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zastie View Post
As much as I laughed at this post, I still have one thing to say. If you noticed it, why didn't you say something about that one part? You don't have to scrap the entire design(which BTW I love) because one part is bothersome. Lots of threads have been popping up recently about Riot over-sexualizing women via champions. Just saying, you can change one part of a design w/o getting rid of the whole thing.

..Also, did you come up with that on the spot or have you been planning that and now got the chance to post it? XD
I think they're not going to abandon the style we're used to completely. I think IronStylus, as an artist wouldn't want to mess around with a done design just to sate what people are asking for in such a minor qualm on physical attributes.


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Whelk

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by saladpuncher View Post
i have a couple things to say in their defence. one, this champion was in the pipeline before they said they would address the problem, they cant just scrap her or try to rush another in progress champion instead of her and then wait until they make one with a new body type. second, shes a mermaid, isnt that what mermaids look like?
There shouldn't even need a defense. I'd prefer the riot team make champions that they feel are good characters and look how they want them to look without having to worry about people going nuclear over the fact that a woman has breasts.

Also, everyone, go ahead and google mermaids. Take a look. Hell, even the referenced Disney's "The Little Mermaid" is literally wearing less than our Nami. Breasts happen. They're not scary. They're not trying to keep you down. They're not trying to trivialize your gender, or your beliefs. They're just there. Being boobs. Now go play some League.


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Imperfectable

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strayal View Post
Breasts happen. They're not scary. They're not trying to keep you down.
Alternately, if they are you're apparently having a better Saturday than I am.


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Myrmidont

Senior Member

11-17-2012

This was oddly tuned to erotic fiction.


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Ryuben

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefarious Angel View Post
Takes me back to '89 being a redheaded 10 year old, wishing I could live under the sea...
Please be a girl.....

Giggity


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Diablosangelis

Junior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laquert View Post
There are two things I take issue which here:

1. While misogyny being portrayed negatively is somewhat true, the biggest backlash that came behind the almost rape scene wasn't that it was an almost rape. It was because a dev went out on record and stated that the objective was to cause players (a player base assumed to be male) to want to protect a vulnerable Lara. This undermines the use of the misogyny because the objective stops being "I want to see Lara, a vulnerable character, overcome adversity" to "I, the male player, want to protect Lara, a vulnerable female, from dangerous men."

2. You're assuming that there is an equivalence to sexualized torture in media. I don't think that's true. Compare the torture scene in Casino Royale to the almost rape from Tomb Raider. Do you think they are equal? Are the torturers receiving the same gratification from their actions?

In this example the issue was that Samus, our female hero, is in canon a powerful and independent figure. However, in Other M she doesn't suffer from the Bag of Spilling: she starts the game with all the cool toys we've seen her use in all other games. However, she chooses not to use them until her ex-boyfriend informs her she can. In this example, the female hero has no independence: she starts with all the tools she needs to beat the game, but the player is incapable of using them until a male authority informs her she can, and throughout the game yields to this authority's opinion.

The problem here isn't that open abuse of women is bad (because no abuse of anyone should be acceptable): it's that we are allowing gender to dictate what types of abuse is "okay" and what isn't. The very idea that hating a woman based on her gender is a step towards equal treatment is obscene because no one ever portrays a character who hates men for the fact they are men, and has that character accepted as reasonable. The treatments are unequal because they are not compatible across gender.

This thought is poison. It is poison because the genders of these villains are men, and there is no male parallel for misogyny that is considered mature and taken seriously.

Take those scenes from before and reverse the genders. Is Casino Royale's torture scene the same if James Bond is a woman? If the villain is a woman? Is Lara's almost rape the same if she were a man and the attacker a woman?

Also, mandatory tropes vs women link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...in-video-games
Thank you for your insight, and well thought out commentary.

I'll start with Metroid: As I stated, I was not familiar with the scenario, and if it is the way you described, then its simply foolish--there are better ways to limit an arsenal at the beginning of a game. Not much more to say there.

As to the developers comments on Tomb Raider, I'd have to agree with you--in that context, you're again diminishing the independence of a female character that is supposed to be strong and independent.

As to your first comment on Casino Royale--I would direct you to psychological studies on those who commit rape and torture because they enjoy it--it is about domination, control and inflicting pain--not about sexual pleasure in the traditional sense. In that context, if the individual doing the torturing is getting pleasure from it, they most likely would enjoy both scenarios.

I have two issues with your comment on gender dictating what type of abuse is okay. The first also relates to your comment on my TL,DR, and is simply that I was pointing out that misogyny, or the hatred of women, is necessary in the context of a female hero, as the villain must hate the hero (in a simplistic interpretation), and by strict definition, that is misogyny. The male counterpart, misandry, is never used simply because a man hating a man, or hurting a man, or torturing a man, is something no one thinks twice about. In fact, it is possible to write a female misandrist as a hero and it be justified. This leads into my second point, which was the primary point: the word misogyny comes up if you have a female hero--the villain must be a misogynist... isn't it more likely they just don't like the hero?

As to your final point, yes: still torture, still rape. Interpretation would be different, execution of it in a manner that could be portrayed in a non-adult film/M-game would be more difficult, but it is still the same. If you'd like explicit explanations, I can go further--rape of men, by both men and women, does occur, as does sexualized torture of men by both men and women.

My primary point here is simple: I believe in equal treatment, which means I see no difference in a hero being tortured regardless of gender--the difference in how it is done is a side effect of differences in anatomy. The issue here is that if the villain is male and the hero female, he MUST be a a misogynist... but if the hero is male, the villain isn't a misandrist.

Technically speaking, one should hate all members of the female gender to be a misogynist, or all members of the male gender to be a misandrist--and I find it doubtful that villains are usually developed to an extent that we can say that about them--although there are a few circumstances where that is the case.

However, I must retract my earlier comment about the examples not fitting the poster's point--in this context, they are very good examples of something wrong with the developers though process.


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tempnameA461

Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

Out of the sea.

Wished she could be.

Part of that roll.



..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
I just wanted to also quote this to fill up 1/3 of a page.
It's not like quoting this alone consists of 30 pages.