@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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Imalia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasi Mota View Post
I think the bulk of this thread is pure nitpicking. Not every champion will appeal to every player, nor should it. I, for one, love most of the female designs and would not ask Riot to change a thing. To each his own I guess.
For me it is nitpicking, but not on the original Gem Lim concept except for maybe one detail. My issue is with the model currently on PBE, where some of the interesting features on her body, namely the frills and the large jewel over her chest are downplayed and toned down to emphasize what appears to be the standard ideal female bodyshape that Riot's 3D artists have been going back to for the past few female champion releases. The V line in the concept is cut even lower in the real model for some reason, and the jewel and frills are smaller, giving the impression that her chest size in relation is larger. Now I know everyone at Riot can do a much better job of emulating concepts than that, so my cynical assumption is that they collectively decided to change the concept in that direction. But then I'd have to ask why and I don't want to be that cynical. So I'm holding out hope that if they don't change Nami's model because it is a finalized product by now, I hope to god they take this feedback into consideration when they model the next female champion concept and try to produce a model that is less consumed by a shape we've been seeing too much of lately and promote the details that will really make the design pop out as unique.

EDIT: Actually, looking at the model again, I think I realize the issue with the jewel is more that it is set higher up so that it doesn't obscure her cleavage, which all but consumes the chain holding the lower smaller piece below it. I still think this is rather problematic as the original concept art let the piece drape over her chest naturally rather than being forced to expose as much of it as possible.


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spawnsbulge

Member

11-18-2012

did everyone forget alistar T_T, he's a support too!


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Decoylegends

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GayGilliam View Post
did everyone forget alistar T_T, he's a support too!
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...6&d=1341983006

but hes not manly


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ThaddeusMike

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Just like we needed Graves to put the manly back into ADC, I think we need a dark and/or male support character as well.
The forums have your back, Morello. Remember, a true genius introduced the best concept on the forums: Angus, the Manly Support.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ighlight=angus


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CommandShockwave

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Just like we needed Graves to put the manly back into ADC, I think we need a dark and/or male support character as well.
Just sayin, I'm pretty sure a certain cosmic martial-artist gave you the best version of a manly support archetype one could possibly imagine. Please do something with it.


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Synthesse

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mughi of Ruckus View Post
When they say same body type, they mean in terms of shape. Sure, she's half fish, but she still has identifiable hips, an identifiable waist and identifiable breasts. Her hips and breasts are very generous and her waist is very slim. Her limbs are slim too. No real muscle to speak of. This is identical to every female champion since Diana. By contrast: http://viz.dwrl.utexas.edu/content/a...verly-ornstein.

Assuming League champions are all in athletic condition, even if they're mages, since they run around on a regular basis, most of their body types should correspond to some sort of athlete, much like the men's do. As you pointed out, the men have "strong musculature." Instead, you've said they're balanced against the men because they have "identifiable femininity in their forms." Note what you just did there, I'm guessing unintentionally. You equated femininity with lack of muscle definition and presence of curves despite the range the human female body expresses in real life.

I know you're speaking of ideals here, but isn't it a problem when the ideal female becomes distanced from athleticism. Isn't that the same sort of thing that eventually leads people to call women who rock wall climb "gross-looking" and "manly" because they have defined shoulders, to call girls who like sports tomboys? Is this not problematic in some way?

Clearly the gender issues of humanity are not your or Riot's responsibility. At the same time, ignoring them as overblown because Miss Fortune and Sona are well-liked by players and share the body type the preponderance of which is taken issue with does your community a disservice. Yes, mermaids are normally depicted as attractive women in popular culture. (Though a Google Image search shows most mermaids as more modest in scale their attributes, but then I do have safesearch on.) In a vacuum, no one would take much issue with Nami's design. (though I'd still give you guys **** for giving her a "neckline" that visually suggests her fish half is a very awkward dress) This is not a vacuum though, and I think here the better response would be:

"I understand where you're coming from, and as IronStylus has mentioned before, steps are being taken. The awareness of the predominance of the issue and the attempt to correct are both relatively recent, though, and will take a while to manifest. Champions have can go a long time between conception and release, as has Elise shown. Even then, though, these champions won't go away completely. They're popular with male and female players both. Despite the issues they may exhibit, they're issues that are reflective of gender perception in our society, and maybe that's why they're so predominant and accepted. Maybe as society changes, this will correct more and more by itself as we subconsciously adjust our perceptions.

Right now, though, we're doing what we can consciously, but that won't mean everything will instantly make everyone happy. That means ratios will shift more and more towards balance as time goes on. Meanwhile, we'll continue to count on your feedback to let us know how we're doing on this front, so don't stop being vocal. At the same time, please bear with us when something like this happens and take our word for it when we say we're not ignoring you. It's a work in progress, and we don't always see how our designs will be received by others."

Based on everything I've read up to this point, the imagined response is more or less what I assumed was the case when I read about Nami the first time. If it's accurate, feel free to use it or a cleaned up version of it yourselves. No charge. If not, really Morello, I have come to expect better of you. This is not a response born from a fixation on the point of breasts. Ironstylus, you continue to be awesome. I'm still waiting for that next set of song lyrics. And with this clip from a story NPR did on The Legend of Korra, I make my leave.



Demographic note: Young adult male who is 90% likely to buy Nami because her mechanics sound fun and the good in her design overrides the slight ridiculousness.
Very much this


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Brick Stick

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, it means some people have a very vocal opinion and want to express it until it is resolve to their personal satisfaction. That may or may not align with what is right for our game and our players.

Excuse me for a moment, I need to speak very candidly about this issue and I may be representing my personal (as opposed to Riot) views here;

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

All of the male characters (that we're happy with...) have strong musculature and other traditionally powerful, male features. All of our females have identifiable femininity in their forums, and that is played up or down based on the archetype. Nami is one of the better-received champion sneak peeks we've seen, so players enjoy it, and accomplishes variety from a lot of angles.

For context, did you know Miss Fortune is the most popular character among female League players? Sona is #2 - something that is appealing to the eye is more aspirational and has a higher "cool quotient" than things that are not - even without hormones in the equation (unless their cool is based on an opposing feature (Kog'Maw, for example)).

We want to offer variety, and earlier this year we talked a lot about improving that. A mermaid is pretty varied when compared to other female champions, and if it has breasts, or not isn't something I think is a focal point of things that actually matter - especially when we do have strong female characters like Diana, Leona or Riven.

The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
I've lost a lot of respect for you from this post. I will not be purchasing any riot points in the future unless I see either some resolution to this topic, or a more forward thinking opinion from someone of such high stature at RIOT.

You could give her ears for feet Morello, it doesn't change the fact that you're showing off her ****. She's well recieved because she's an interesting champ- and you didn't have to show some nipple to get that effect.

Maybe league of legends isn't a progressive game, maybe you can cater to a playerbase, that chooses not to care about gender stereotyping. It's still a ****ty thing to support.


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ViashinoWizard

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard)
How is old, crippled but still dangerous and intelligent bird wizard an unappealing archetype?


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Expl0r3r

Member

11-18-2012

Scumbag Morello, gets boosted to diamond in 3 vs 3 by a pro kayle and I only have gold >.<

Characters with bigger bewbs are more flashy and so ppl pick them more imo.


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somewhere

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViashinoWizard View Post
How is old, crippled but still dangerous and intelligent bird wizard an unappealing archetype?
maybe he ment that the rest of his character just goes neglected / ignored making him simply a bird wizard.