Which Champions Will NOT Survive the Item Rework?

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Eydolon

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Leona without a heart of gold is a sad leona, im telling you


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Spawnblade

Senior Member

11-16-2012

The reason I believe games will be shorter are because the item balance has been shifted toward offense as far as cost goes. This means carries get farmed faster. Farmed carries rip apart objectives. Dead objectives = Game over.

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Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
Nasus will be awesome with the new Taiamat as, even though it does not apply the damage of his Q, it will add stacks with every enemy killed by Cleave.
Wait, what? Why will it add stacks of Q with every enemy killed with Cleave? The old Tiamat didn't. That only worked for GP's Parrrley. Has this been tested? If so, then yes it could be viable. However, you'd have to build a significant amount of AD and you'd be more open to harass while trying to set the minions up perfectly for your Q.

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Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
Spellvamp for AD's was always a think most people ought to know was not a solution worth jack waffles, many ad caster abilities are AoE and thus apply nearly no spellvamp, spellvampw as never and will never be the solution of ad caster issues.

Warwick already IS viable and the new jungle will only help that, also not all tiems are even revealed yet.

Also games won't be much faster as, with the new fofensive options, new and better DEFENSIVE options will be added as well.
WW is viable currently, but there's a reason you don't see him in competitive play. But Mercurial Dagger is going to be pretty standard for ADs, particularly if there's a WW or Malz. It will hurt him. -However-, after further PBE play, I've seen a number of items that function particularly well for any champ with a built in attack speed boost. He should be fine. His jungle should be one of the safest in the game as well, which actually means something now.

As for spell vamp, did you not see that they're nearly doubling its effectiveness to 50% for AoEs? Personally, I think they should just change lifesteal to work on all physical damage, and spell vamp to work on all magical/true damage. As it stands, most of the items AD casters want to buy have life steal, and they're pretty much paying for stats that they get almost no use out of. If they keep trying to buff the champs, instead of fix the inherent problem, then there is going to be some issues down the road once they do implement decent AD caster items.


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Spawnblade

Senior Member

11-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Kagami View Post
This was explained by Xypherous as good as AD spell vamp will be on talon / urgot / etc, some fighters are just absurd with it, if you haven't played 3s vs a darius, lee sin, riven, or olaf getting the AD/Spellvamp item you probably don't understand why it would be an issue...

Plenty of items help AD nidalee though, so she'll be fine, and AP nidalee has been unviable vs remotely good players since the nerfs to ratios on heal before S2 started.
AP nidalee is very much a competitive pick. She always have been. She, like many others, merely fell out of favor. However, she remains one of maybe three champions that can provide massive sustain and poke for an entire team. She also has great mobility, warding, and a fairly safe lane with few hard counters.

I don't see Nidalee benefiting from too much though. Maybe Blade of the Ruined King. Does the on-hit from that synergize with the Hydra? Three bolts proccing for 4% life per hit with her heal boost wouldn't be terrible. Her range is pitiful when compared to Kayle though. I'd rather take her up top if playing a ranged in that lane. Kayle also benefits more from the various on-hit items added.

As for spell vamp/life steal, my issue is that champs like renekton need some serious work if they want to remain viable when they have to purchase all these items that have wasted stats (life steal.) They just need to fix it so life steal works on all physical abilities, then tone down problem abilities. Otherwise they're just stuck buffing every champ accordingly to keep up with auto attacker counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Dragull2 View Post
I feel that Vlad was not helped at all with the new items. And also the new masteries are bad for him.
I use defense masteries to max CDR at lvl 18, this mastery was removed. =/
I think Vlad can make better use of Liandry's Lament than most APs. Both him and Mord. He also receives a nice buff in the form of aoe spell vamp working at 50% effectiveness. This benefits mord even more, as all of mords abilities sans ult are AoE. Wasn't there another spell vamp item in as well?... The name eludes me.


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Spawnblade

Senior Member

11-16-2012

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Originally Posted by SleepyDeath View Post
if you think most of olaf's damage comes form his e then you are very confused about how to play olaf. give olaf a little attack damage and most of his damage comes from a combination of q and w.

i think it was nice of you to try and help others, but your lack of knowledge is fkin amazing
Bet you play Olaf as a suicide anti-carry.

Olaf's best enemy is tanks, thanks to how insanely well his E scales vs them. One E on a 3-400 armor tank is going to be the equivalent of ~1200 physical damage. Better to have him keep the tanks/bruisers off your carry by shredding them apart and perma-slowing, thus allowing your carry to do their job, than to waste your time chasing their carry. If you want to play an anti-cc anti-carry, Irelia is the better pick.

If you're playing him as an anti-carry, trying to kill their AD, you won't be successful unless you -- A. Picked last (so they picked a carry like Kog or Ashe or someone else without an effective escape mechanism. B. Are vsing a team with an Ez/Trist/Corki that doesn't know how to kite. This will, however, change in Season 3, as there are a number more ranged slowing items and movement speed boosts that come on items.


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Spawnblade

Senior Member

11-16-2012

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Originally Posted by InstaFrag View Post
I saw this topic, and I know of one Brazilian Melee AP champ who's going to be JUST FINE. The rest of them didn't get much, but this guy got one of the most broken items in the game, that just so happens to have stupid synergy with his core build.
I agree. I actually wasn't considering him melee, but I really should have. I was just thinking about his E. But yes, Liandry's Lament and him will be best friends. Not to mention Gunblade may be rather viable on him again. If spell vamp procs from Liandry's Lament, I'd consider just going LL/Gunblade/Will/tank items. And rely on long term survivability/burn/ghost.


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Spawnblade

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokedCayenne View Post
I hear urgot will not receive anything positive either
Urgot gets a few items. Muramana, for one. Then Frozen Fist. And The Black Cleaver.

They all improve his bruiserish/tanky long range support path. Also, Mikael's Crucible and Ohmwrecker could be used effectively for survivability and team support.

As far as carrying goes though, and building carry items, I don't see him benefiting much. His Q doesn't proc on-hits, it doesn't give lifesteal, it's just a short-cooldown nuke.


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Spawnblade

Senior Member

11-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Ansaa View Post
I agree with you, whittle enemies down in lane and then use your combo. My strategy in team fights is to go after who ever is weakest, and get out fast.

But Volatile Spiderling is NOT braindead! I love watching them run away from the spider (Who eventually outruns them) and then see them take the damage anyways, despite running!

As long as I can build Haunting Guise, Sorc Boots, Abyssal Scepter, Rylai's, Zhonya's and Void Staff then I'll be unaffected by anything.

Plus, don't get last whisper on her. The bonus damage she deals in Spider form is Magical, not physical.

My issue with the spider is that you cannot target specific champions in teamfights. It's just going to blow up the nearest one it sees. Unless, of course, you send it running in the opposite direction, change to spider, and Q the intended target. This can be tricky though as it depends on positioning.

There are a two reasons for Last Whisper (Well, armor pen--not necessarily LW):

1. Magic Penetration is not shared with your spiders (from what I've read, it's just armor pen and movement speed.)

2. A little bit of math: Spiders do 40 physical damage each at max level (total of 200 between the five) and 10% of your AP in magic damage. So you have to have 400 AP for them to do equivalent magic damage as they do physical (I believe your build barely surpasses that.) However, as they have no mpen, they will do ~50% less damage to carries, and as much as 80% less to tanks with their magic damage. With just last whisper, however, you can give them 40% apen for a significant increase in damage (usually at least 40%) for the physical damage they're doing (which is equivalent to 400 AP worth of bonus magic damage.)

Now looking at her own auto attack, it's 47.5 + 3 (x18) = 102.5 base. With her recent magic ratio buff and a base of 40 magic damage on hit, it would take about 200 AP to reach the same threshold as her physical damage. 400 AP would be the equivalent of 160 or so physical damage. Obviously, it's less useful on her, and she makes up about half of her damage with no attack speed items (considering she has the slowest possible attack speed in the game... I'm not sure building atk spd will ever be worth it though.) More useful once we factor in the bonus AD from the LW.

So really, if you build LW you're increasing about half of your auto attack damage by -at least- 40% (dependent on how much armor they have.) And a huge chunk of her damage definitely comes from this. The question is if it's worth the item slot, I guess. I'd have to run the numbers on how big of an impact her other items are, but I'd, in a heartbeat, replace Haunting Guise for it. Or even get Ghostblade if you were going to focus squishies. The CDR + attack speed boost + armor pen for you and spiders + movespeed boost would be quite valuable.

[edit] Just read another thread that says ALL the spiderlings damage is physical. Including the bonus damage. Not sure how accurate this is, but it definitely would further promote building armor pen.[/edit]


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bob000

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawnblade View Post
First off, let me say I absolutely love the kind of itemization Riot is introducing here. This is REALLY going to mix up the game for the better, and make every game different, while raising the potential skill cap overall, regardless of which champion you're playing.


However, it is pretty clear that certain champions are benefiting far more from these items than others. That is good, in many cases. For instance, the new Tiamat + upgrade and the Mercurial (dagger?) are going to make champs like Tryndamere and Yi extremely powerful. I suspect we'll see a new meta incoming with the advent of the melee carries.

Also, it appears that the items in general are pointing toward the offensive style of play. Particularly with stat costs being reworked. I suspect games will not last nearly so long, which should help champs that otherwise scale poorly. I may be wrong here, but there are a number of nerfed defensive items, and very few additions when compared to the offensive.

There are, however, a few champion archetypes that are going to be extremely lacking in this new atmosphere:

1. Melee APs-- While the melee ADs have received a number of AoE complements and bruiser type items, there have been no new AP items for this purpose.

2. Late Game Ability Focused Monsters - Olaf/Nasus/Veigar/etc.

3. AD Casters - I know we were told these were going to get love, but I'm really not seeing it. Where's the AD spell vamp items? The only item I see that specifically procs on -any- physical damage is Black Cleaver.

4. AD Carries -- Not sure how this will play out. If games are that much faster, it's going to be difficult for them to get farmed. On the other hand, AD cost on items was reduced, so they'll get their builds significantly faster. It almost seems like they're completely changing up the way team comps are going to work. It will no longer be about supporting your AD late, since other champs can now be team wreckers as well (and it might take the same amount of time for them all to get farmed.)


Champions in Danger:

#1 - Nasus: First and foremost, our loveable Q-farmer gained nothing that I can see from these changes. In fact, his desire to build tanky items is going to hurt him massively, as he already had a tough time sustaining vs harass from people who stacked offensive items vs. him. Add in the faster game pace and the fact that his Q doesn't synergize with any of the new abilities (and many of the new abilities remove his wither), and Nasus is in serious trouble. The only thing I see him taking away from this is less jungle pressure. Still, it's not like Nasus EVER pushed.

Conclusion: Nasus is going to need an overhaul to be remotely competitive.
Nasus benefits greatly from the removal of the 4 minion damage reduction masteries.
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#2 - Renekton / Pantheon / Talon / Zed / Garen -- Where's the spell vamp please? With lifesteal now being allowed to proc in AoEs via new Tiamat upgrade, how on earth can these champs compete with their AA counterparts? These champs do not benefit from crit or atk spd either (at least not relative to the AAers) and those are the majority of the new items.


#3 - Warwick -- Same problem as with the other melee on-hits/APs. The upgrade to Quicksilver doesn't help him either. The adjusted jungle is one of the few things that does.
Jungle changes are huge. WW is actually a top tier jungler once more
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#4 - Cho'Gath/Mundo -- % life burn from mages is going to hurt a lot. Mind you, if his vorpal spikes (or Mundo's W) proc the burn like they do Rylai's/spell vamp... then he'd gain more than he'd lose. (they both have built in movement impairment as well. Though AP on Mundo isn't particularly ideal. Still, potentially useful.)

#5 - Elise - No items for melee AP. She'd benefit mildly from Liandry's Lament (the life burn) but she has no movement impairment other than stun, and her two Q abilities are on relatively long cooldowns when compaired to other mages (considering the requirement to transform to use both.) The only item I see potentially saving her is the Banner of Command. This, however, is dependent entirely on if it affects her spiders (it should) and how much % damage it increases. That item will likely make or break her.

#6 - Veigar -- Same problem as Nasus with regard to farm. I also see the upgraded QSS becoming his bane. He doesn't really benefit from anything in particular, except maybe building an Archangel's. The fact that Deathfire Grasp no longer scales from AP will also hurt.
IT scales with the rest of his damage which itself scales with AP
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#7 - Nidalee -- Other APs have been given a number of tools to use vs her. Likewise, the ADs have as well. She, however, didn't get anything except the ability to run Archangels to Seraph's and stack tear even faster (for AP Nid.) There were no hybrid items that might benefit her either. I foresee an eventual rework here.

#8 - Olaf -- Don't laugh. He doesn't benefit (relatively so) from attack speed/crit. Most of his damage comes from his E and having a large amount of life to run amok with. Now, however, we have additional items to remove CC (thus making his ult less impressive) and life burn from mages. The only item I see benefiting him is the sheen/glacial shroud item.

Did I miss anyone?


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chezwickcheese

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Melee ap's


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KobaltKode

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Mmmmmmm, Olaf will love himself some Ravenous Hydra! It'll make him a jungling/team fighting monster!