I'm trying out the new jungle in the pbe

First Riot Post
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ScarletDeviI

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Problem 1 : Early game jungle is much harder, you need to buy more pots to survive through it on average (Costs more gold), gives slightly less\equal gold. This also means snowballing through ganks is much harder.

Problem 2 : Almost all junglers are forced to start with a item that does not have any stats that help fighting enemy champions.

Problem 3 : Said item turns into other items which have alot of their cost built into damage amp on jungle creeps, this delays builds and makes the jungler use gold just to farm faster\more effeciently.

Problem 4 : Jungle gives better gold around the time where lanes start beginning to farm jungle creeps for themselves.

Problem 5 : Teams that are ahead later into the game will snowball even harder now due to double jungle access

Problem 6 : Using the excuse that lane gold was also decreased is iffy, as S2 jungle gave such a extreme amount less gold then lanes that carry junglers where a complete and utter joke for the most part. (Unless they snowballed from lane kills\global objectives, etc)

Problem 7 : When you chose to just farm the jungle, you are not influencing the map at all. A laner is always there preventing the enemy team (or at least trying to) from taking the tower.

TL;DR : Im not very happy with the new jungle =<


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CowTemplar

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.
...this is going to make the skill gap in LoL less and less!! HoN and Dota have creep denial; LoL doesn't even reward as much for csing now...


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shamurai7

Senior Member

11-18-2012

300 gold for the machete? NTY...

ill never jungle again with this garbage. your already getting less gold than laning...

then wasiting on healing potions, wards, and now the useless machete?

gg junglers watching your first 800 gold go in the trash can.


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yurklol

Junior Member

11-18-2012

WTB "Go to next Stonewall Post" button.

On a more serious note, I have 2 chief concerns in the new jungle. Keep in mind that I have no access to PBE and am basing these concerns on vidoes I've seen and Riot posts I've read.

1) Gold income. Keep in mind that past the 11 minute mark, a lot of junglers had 1 and soon 2 gp10 items, 1 of which got removed and the other nerfed. These items made up for the fact that at this point in the game the jungler could no longer count on farming effectivly and instead had to focus on protecting lanes or objectives like dragon. Riot has stated there will be an "ambient gold increase" (+3 gp10) but the removal of our damn-near-mandatory gp10s more than balances that out (-6 gp10). I'm not saying I liked building gp10, I didn't, but it was done out of necessity.

What we may find here is a nerf to the jungler's actual gold because if a lane flounders A) you have to camp that lane, lowering your own farm and/or B) that lane is going to take jungle creeps.

2) Level 1 invades that steal blue will win the game. In the old jungle this was already a huge advantage. Amumu on the other team? 5 man invade him and get his blue. This happened to me multiple times, it did indeed put me behind, and that's fine. But it was recoverable, get red without leash, get gp10 items, work hard at ganking appropriatly and eventually you could recover. It was an uphill climb, but you could get there. Now, if I just don't see it happening.

It seems like Riot took away some of the risk of snowball lanes had (cs meant more, jungler could preasure early) and put it on the jungler (functional ambient gold decrease meaning cs is even more important, more susceptible to invasion). And maybe that's what Riot is going for, if so, that's fine. We'll learn to deal with it and adapt. But it's already the jungler's fault when something goes wrong in solo queue, I'm concerned we'll have even less room for error.


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InazumaRush

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Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.
It sounds like this would slow down the game, in a manner. If that is what you're intending I understand but if you're trying to either keep the same pacing as season 2 then this is going in the wrong direction. If everyone is experiencing less gold gain earlier in the game obviously it would make the lane-ing phase longer because people would feel they need more gold in order to properly team fight. At the same time, like you said, it will increase the incentive to kill the enemy champions.


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Clockworksummonr

Senior Member

11-18-2012

How does Trundle do in the new jungle?

He was the reason I am a bit interested in starting to jungle and PBE queue had been insane for the past couple days so i haven't gotten to try.

Slow clear? Fast clear? Bad sustain? Good Sustain?


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LawfulEvil

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Can we finally get a verdict on Jungle Tryndamere please? I know he was mentioned in the Darius video but I want to know how he turns out. I'm more than a little worried that Stonewall's prediction that the Machette will be worthless on him on account of his lack of spammable AoE will turn out to be true and the last FUN place to play my favorite character will go byebye.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Okay, so some junglers had their sustain butchered (no more vamp scepter start) and they get nothing out from new jungle early...

Also junglers are forced at buying at least the machete, an item that give no stats outside of the jungle...

And they cant go easily for gold items as the only gold item that is reeeeally efficient, is the kage lucky pick (the spirit stone is now a better version of the philo stone, heart of gold got chopped down, and avarice seems only worth it if you plan on using atma or shiv item thingy)...


This didnt help AT ALL on ANYTHING the way i see it >.>'


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Julie12

Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.

Why can't we have *higher* lane rewards like in Dota? (I think it's 50 gold per minion there). This way we don't have to farm for 30 minutes before the real action starts. Also it would allow support to snag some last hits and not completely rely on assists for spiking their income.


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ImRecordingYou

Member

11-18-2012

I thought camps in S2 banked gold and xp? So if you failed a gank the longer the camp was there it was worth more. The only way to lose out was to have it farmed out from under you or counter jungled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
This aspect of S1 is what created the abundance of ganks. You didn't lose anything, because you had 30-60 second gaps before you could continue farming.

S2 fixed that, by making there always be a trade-off in order to gank. Failed gank = missed out on gold and xp.

So, while I definitely think further balancing needs to be done, I sure hope they don't change respawn timers at all.