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Nami - feedback and questions thread

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BeastBox

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Healsforhugs:
I'm not quite sure where you're seeing monster Zyras. Typical Zyras that do end up smashing lane end up going typical support items rather then going an AP route.

Oh, I agree. But it makes the argument about high ratios on supports even more irrelevant. You have a 0.9 ratio? Cool! What's 90% of zero?
Quote:
Healsforhugs:

If people want to pick Soraka/Taric/Leona, its pretty obvious that they're going bot. That's their choice to be "counter picked". Not every champion needs to be viable in different roles. Trying to balance every champion or every new champion to fill multiple roles is unrealistic.

It's not unrealistic at all; as I said, most champions do it. Every Red comment I've seen on the topic says they like when champs can fill multiple roles (and there's no reason they shouldn't). Especially since Riot apparently doesn't like explicitly enforcing the meta. They do anyway, but highly specialized champs just make it worse for them.
Quote:
Healsforhugs:

I think the point to 0 cs supports is that you're always useful, despite not having gold or even being shut down in lane because your kit is full of utility your team just wouldn't be the same without. That is the reason why teams take supports in the first place, they bring something to the team that no one else can. Support items before the season 3 patch are extremely strong, and even getting 1 very early can drastically change how the rest of the game will go compared to if your team didn't have it.

They bring something no one else can? Incorrect; AP mids have an equal amount of CC and buffs in general. Everything you say in favour of dedicated supports can be said about AP mids, and they get to do damage too. Orianna, Lux, Zyra, Morgana, Fiddlesticks ... tons of CC, zoning, shields, free vision ... just as much of a support as Soraka would ever be. Unconventional supports have been getting more and more popular, not because of team comps, but because people are recognizing that supports just aren't that strong anymore. It's probably the only role in the game that has experienced power creep in reverse.
Quote:
Healsforhugs:

I don't believe supports will ever build mainly AP.

Well then why do their ratios matter so much?


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Healsforhugs

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
BeastBox:
Oh, I agree. But it makes the argument about high ratios on supports even more irrelevant. You have a 0.9 ratio? Cool! What's 90% of zero?

It's not unrealistic at all; as I said, most champions do it. Every Red comment I've seen on the topic says they like when champs can fill multiple roles (and there's no reason they shouldn't). Especially since Riot apparently doesn't like explicitly enforcing the meta. They do anyway, but highly specialized champs just make it worse for them.

They bring something no one else can? Incorrect; AP mids have an equal amount of CC and buffs in general. Everything you say in favour of dedicated supports can be said about AP mids, and they get to do damage too. Orianna, Lux, Zyra, Morgana, Fiddlesticks ... tons of CC, zoning, shields, free vision ... just as much of a support as Soraka would ever be.

Well then why do their ratios matter so much?


I don't think you've really been following what I've been talking about. I would prefer if supports didn't have ratios, except on things that help them support more. I don't care if they do more damage outside of the lane phase because people will have MR and without the proper runes and masteries, theres no way you'll never be able to do any meaningful damage.

Riot makes new champions that don't fit the meta, if the meta changes, a champion designed as a 0 cs support will be just like them. I don't see any issues with that.

There are high utility mages, that end up doing a better job middle because they have good ratios and are able to get items. Thats fine. But, their job shouldn't be to protect a AD carry/team with all those items and they certainly can't do both damage and protect everyone without help. There is simply no reason not to put them in a lane where they can get items simply because they scale so well yet have so much utility.

I would also argue, a lot of these high utility mages are part of the problem. They bring a lot of CC, initiation and have high burst because of their ratios, there is literally no draw back. Orianna, Lulu, Zyra were all nerfed for this reason. Without a high utility support (or jungler/top), there is no option to play Ziggs, or any other high damage/low utility mage. Unfortunately because these utility mages are so strong, theres no reason to play both high CC support and high CC mage. Also, what ultimately decides which champion is a mid laner and which is a support, usually comes down to how well they can actually do in a lane situation.


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Moogles1

Senior Member

11-16-2012

oom too fast for her to be rly fun and supportive...


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Moogles1

Senior Member

11-16-2012

lol


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Moogles1

Senior Member

11-16-2012

there is drawbacks...low movement fragile avoidable combos few or none target spells high default cd


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Bidorr the Great

Senior Member

11-16-2012

From the two games I've played with her so far, one thing I can say for sure, she's REEEEEALLY mana starved. Like even with regen/lvl seals, Chalice, Phil stone, AND tear of the goddess, I still found myself running out of mana frustratingly often. I totally understand, cuz her poke/sustain would be ridiculous if her abilities were too much cheaper, but still...

Also I'm still messing around with the new masteries and items, so maybe some tweaks here and there could alleviate this issue... but seriously, I tried playing her as a mid carry in a bot game, and the only thing that seriously alleviated my mana problems was having blue buff...

The timing between casting her ult and it actually beginning to flow feels a little weird... "sticky" is the word that comes to mind. I'll have to mess around with her more to get a better idea, so this might not even be an actual issue...

Overall, pretty fun new support champ! thanks!


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Lesthrid

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Classick:
This is something I've thought about a lot, one idea we've thought of is a more debuff heavy support where their AP ratios scale the duration of their debuffs as opposed to damage. More than likely Nami will have her AP ratios reduced some, but we don't want to make purchasing AP feel like a complete waste.

Lulu's ratios were nerfed to the point where this is exactly how I feel, and unlike Nami, she only has AP ratios on three of her abilities. Could you explain your thoughts about this in some detail? I don't want Nami to be hit with the same hammer Lulu got hit with.


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Ronan Parke

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Where did you get the concept of Nami's model from?


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Hazama Terumi

Senior Member

11-16-2012

I really like her so far, she's really fun to play! However, i think her passive could stand to last a tiny bit longer. Right now, it's hardly noticeable because of how short it lasts.

Also, I really think that her W shouldn't interrupt movement, like Rengar's W used to do. Because of the brief cast time, she winds up not gaining any more ground than she would've normally because by the time its done casting, her passive is pretty much already used up.


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Lesthrid

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Healsforhugs:
I don't think you've really been following what I've been talking about. I would prefer if supports didn't have ratios, except on things that help them support more. I don't care if they do more damage outside of the lane phase because people will have MR and without the proper runes and masteries, theres no way you'll never be able to do any meaningful damage.

Riot makes new champions that don't fit the meta, if the meta changes, a champion designed as a 0 cs support will be just like them. I don't see any issues with that.

There are high utility mages, that end up doing a better job middle because they have good ratios and are able to get items. Thats fine. But, their job shouldn't be to protect a AD carry/team with all those items and they certainly can't do both damage and protect everyone without help. There is simply no reason not to put them in a lane where they can get items simply because they scale so well yet have so much utility.

I would also argue, a lot of these high utility mages are part of the problem. They bring a lot of CC, initiation and have high burst because of their ratios, there is literally no draw back. Orianna, Lulu, Zyra were all nerfed for this reason. Without a high utility support (or jungler/top), there is no option to play Ziggs, or any other high damage/low utility mage. Unfortunately because these utility mages are so strong, theres no reason to play both high CC support and high CC mage. Also, what ultimately decides which champion is a mid laner and which is a support, usually comes down to how well they can actually do in a lane situation.

There is some truth in what you say, but what Beastbox is saying carries more weight. Of the three champions you mentioned, only Lulu was designed to be a dedicated support, and it just so happens that she was nerfed the hardest. This removed her from the AP carry role, and affected her supporting heavily. While I have no qualms with the prior, the fact that they hurt her supporting really frustrated me. Orianna and Zyra both have as much presence in team fights as Lulu does, if not more, but they can still get away with dealing respectable damage even with no farm. This automatically puts Lulu at a disadvantage because she not only has to maneuver around her enemy dealing more damage, but also has to deal with the fact that she is equally matched in the one area that she should outshine both of these champions, utility. This means that supports are being designed to be weaker than other champions and people are starting to notice this. Players are starting to shift to less traditional supports because they can get away with support utility and carry damage at the same time.