Article about LoL Lore from Kitae Talk

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

StarkRavenMad

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
The Riven Part
Uh, buddy, she doesn't care about the "underhanded backstabbing" bit. She cared that they released Zaunite weaponry on their OWN people. That they basically cheated in a war. She proudly fought for Noxus, until that happened, and had since then meant to fight FOR Noxus in her own way.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

maxterdexter

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I'd rather have the plot of the league than the "Reliving of this THE FINAL BATTLE FOR THE FATE OF EVERYTHING" of Dota/2/HoN.

It doesn't make sense? Most fighting games don't, or sport games. You want more? Great! let's see what can be done, but don't leave us hanging or take out what was built before.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gixia

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkRavenMad View Post
Uh, buddy, she doesn't care about the "underhanded backstabbing" bit. She cared that they released Zaunite weaponry on their OWN people. That they basically cheated in a war. She proudly fought for Noxus, until that happened, and had since then meant to fight FOR Noxus in her own way.
Yes. Cheating in the war = Underhanded tactics. Sacrificing your own men unnecessarily = backstabbing. True, backstabbing might be pushing it a bit, but she definitely gives a damn about the fact that there's been a shift from a focus on strength to a focus on fighting dirty in Noxus. The point is that it is not especially difficult to come up with reasons why Riven would want to fight.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cerubois

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
.
Thank you for taking the time to reply, Kitae. I wish you guys spent more time here talking to us. We feel a bit abandoned here (which is likely the reason for the frustration).

I'd appreciate an explanation of what you consider the difference to be between 'depth' and 'complexity'. I mean, the definition of depth in terms of writing includes the word complex.
In my statement, I was referring to the idea that a simple character with an in-depth story is used more as an avatar for the player in order to experience the story first-hand (e.g. most war games).
But League of Legends would probably benefit more from having characters with depth, with emotions, and most importantly, with personalities. Instead of having "I fight because I'm right and you're wrong", we've received many characters in the past that have much more than that, and have become fan favourites. It's not exactly their stories that captivate us, but their persona. I was immediately attached to Lux and Riven upon reading their judgements. They had a personality to themselves. You could see their motivations were not so simple as "I'm fighting for this, and this only", but more like "I'm trying to figure out who I am and what I fight for." And this is the kind of character that's appealing to us writers. It may not be the same for everyone, but it's important to us, the ones who have been attached to these characters for a long time now. We'd hate to see them changed.

As Gixia stated before, the majority of champions so far have been willing participants in the League. The League itself hasn't been 'controlling' them and forcing them to fight regardless of their views. I can agree to some point that the story is disjointed from gameplay, simply because the amount of games being played cannot be justified story-wise as anything other than 'practice' (not even our world has so many disputes that need to be settled).
But with that said, the Ionia vs Noxus match was brilliantly done. It took a pool of champions that would support either cause, and the summoners had their pick of which ones would be present. I don't think there were any issues with champion motives (aside from Miss Fortune, who for some reason supported Noxus), and the entire event was detailed and accounted for. It was a rather complex story that was settled with gameplay, and it's the only thing that's done so to date.

On a side note, it's very hard to see the latest champions fighting for what they believe in within the League, without redefining what the League is about. It is an international peacekeeper, first and foremost. After that, it is a defense force for Valoran, subduing harmful threats (The Void, Brand, Xerath, etc.). Lastly, it is a competition and a spectacle (though it is uncertain if the League actually profits off of entertainment). Few champions have joined simply to show off their skills. Most have an alternative cause that the League would likely see as a valid concern, e.g. fighting for their country, seeking answers/help in return for service, and so on. Yet the last five champions have so far offered nothing to the League. They're there for themselves, and themselves only. Why did the League accept them?

I think you misunderstood my last point. I was claiming that the latest champions have been shallow in their goals, without motivation, without a strong personality.
Take Rengar and Kha'Zix. They only exist in the lore to fight (and kill, which I'll touch on in a second) each other. Their fight could be easily taken elsewhere. They have no reason to be in the League.
Syndra? She claims to want to destroy Ionia's leaders because she's upset, yet for some reason she's here doing nothing about Ionia.
Elise had everything she needed. A cult following that nourished her desire for immortality. It was all set up and easy to accomplish. Why did she decide the League would be better?
Finally, Zed. He has his box, and his shadow techniques. It is said he wishes to perfect his techniques, but since the box held all the secrets, what more is there? He also claims that he will destroy the 'fake' ninjas, but in past lore, it is widely known that the League will prevent battles between champions. He can't kill the other ninjas, since they're part of the League (and thus the reason for Warwick, Karthus, Rengar, and Kha'Zix to be there is pointless). I'll admit his story is much more appealing than the others, but it's still missing that "So... What?" aspect.

Without changing what the League is about, and how it works, these characters' motivations are illogical. And a character without a motivation is one I'd consider shallow, provided their personality doesn't make up for it. Giving them one distinct, unreachable goal does not give them depth or complexity.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

maxterdexter

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I'm going to guess that Rengar joined the league to hunt something other than Kha'Zix (Let's say Cho'gath) and once inside, he couldn't just leave, also forcing Kha'zix in.

Karthus now follows some kind of Shadow Isle agenda, also he loves any death, so the victim doesn't need to be a champion.

As Zed AMA indicated he didn't keep any strong ninja besides himself, someone who can trully put his skills to the test. Also the league can be used to gain political power and take over Ionia or something. I still don't know why he hates Kennen so much.

Syndra is trully an enigma, I liked a fan theory of her being a Xavier/Magneto (that looks like Emma Frost) combination and the castle being a school for gifted mage children that were limmited like her and uses the league for further protection-recluting-finding a place for the kids. Current motivation: shallow.

Finaly Warwick, he could be in the league to further Zaunite interests, not being a chemist doesn't take away his other motivations. Keeping tabs on Soraka is a plus, or maybe the fake hearth and blood keep the loosing of control at bay temporaly.

There's place to read between the lines, but I'd like it better if the plot points were more solid.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheNarvalOfDeath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Alright so this has turned into a pretty interesting thread so i'll try to add something into it, although most of my personal opinions have already been brought up into the table. In order to do so, i'll do a completely subjective analysis on both the old and the new ways to deliver lore.

a) Champion Bios (Both): Pretty simple stuff, old lore bios were similar to recent bios that were released but with the very important difference that old bios always included a one-liner that gave the character a reason for joining the League. This was good on one side because as it can be clearly seen now, if you dont say why a given character is joining then it just tends to seem like the character has absolutely no reason to join at all, and so is in the League just because **** you. On the other side, i remember lots of threads about people complaining about how this reasons Riot used to give were, often enough, pretty lame so they ended up having a similar effect to having no reason at all (i remember there was a lot of trouble since Fizz was released, and even today i think this is the real reason Riot stopped giving this one-liners, creating innovative or at least new reasons to join wasnt easy as the number of champions grew). Also as kitae clearly stated new bios try to drive the atention away from the League, this has pros and cons that have already been mentioned here so i wont expand to much on this point (although i agree with Gixia or Double Delta on a lot of stuff). Another important difference (and that is another thing Riot is trying to solve i think) was that old lore bios (and im refering specially to those really old champions) contained a lot of stuff, details that had nothing to do with anything, things that weren't explored and ended up as lose ends or stuff that plain and simply didnt add anything to the story. Were they bad? boring? No, i like them but well if Riot wants to polish them ok, im fine as long as they dont take the character and transform him/her into something completely different (ill be honest and say that i didnt really care for WW so his change, that was really criticized, had no real effect on me. Soraka in the other hand... but well all in all i dont think that it was so bad, just the first impact was kind of shocking but im used to this new story now).

b)Journal of Justice (Old lore): Before doing the analysis ill let it be know that this was by far my favourite lore stuff so it will be hard to be objective. Ok so, for those who never read it (omg go do it now, it is totally worth it) this was like a newspapper from Valoran. It was actually simple stuff, once every two weeks (i think) a new number was released, it contained about 6 notes, talking about different stuff that occured inthe Lore universe (here, you'll understand it much better if you see it: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/story/...13-july-20-cle). It certainly was "walls of text" and im pretty sure it would hardly atract anyone who isnt a lore geek, those were the cons BUT as it has already been mentioned, it gave the universe a sense of reality, it got the universe moving and it allowed us (the geeks at least) to feel like we were part of that world (oh those conspiracy times, those hidden messages, the wait for the next issue and the threads about all the crazy stuff we could come up with just because on the image of one issue you could see a blade and we were all like "hey what is kat doing there" and "that is not kat man, that is totally Talon..."). Yes it took a lot of time to read and it wasnt atractive, but the impact it had in the world... it clearly did what kitae and the rest of the team are trying to do now, it drove the atention away from the League (by talking about different stuff that occured all along Valoran) but at the same time it inserted the League into that same world, it made it feel more real. Anyway JoJ have already been mentioned and explained much better by 1Eredale so go re-read his post.

c)Judgements (Old Lore): Another "walls of text" tool may be, that is why they discontinued it along with the JoJ. Just like the new AMAs, it was posted on the forums. What was it? It was a story about the day the given champion joined the League, well not the whole day... specifically the part where members of the League (i cant remember if they were summoners or they had a special name) entered the mind of the character to see what motivated them to join the League. It usually narrated a specific life changing event for the champion and ended up with a simple question (ohh the chills) "Why do you want to join the League". Anyway, it gave us what the one-liners sometimes failed to do, the reason (but explored in depth) of why the champion wants to join the league. While doing so it also gave us hints about present stuff (either thing mentioned on JoJ, or perhaps the lines he says in game or whatever) but also it made clear what motivated him/her, what was the thing that kept them going... hey, almost forgot, it also sometimes created a link between some champions, for example with Swain-Jarvan 4/Le BLanc or Miss Fortune-Gangplank. Cons? It was walls of text i think, and unlike the JoJ (where you had the Mailbag of Justice to send letters that were the answered) there was really no way to interact with it, all you could do was read.

*BTW: I just realized, AMAs are like the Mailbag of Justice but you can only ask about on character, omg*

d)RP events: I wasnt really into the RP stuff back then, nor i am now BUT i do think it was a really cool move by Riot when they did this, again it was just for the geeks but heck? Who else cared about the Lore back then? I know you want the Lore to be taken into account by more people but we all know that in the end the geeks will still be the ones asking the questions, complaining or congraulating. Anyway people who is into RP will be able to explain more how this worked, i just know that it was people like me and you playing and then bam! Maokai was created from there so that was a pretty nice impact in-game (about this, i think Mao was created based on an RP event because that is what some people said, if it turns out not to be this way dont kill me)

e)Special in-game interactions between characters (Both): Title says it all, some characters when they are together on the Fields of Justice have a special interaction, either a line they say or may be a funny passive, or maybe an URF attacking you while you go aid top lane. This sometimes funny stuff appeared a long time ago although it is gaining more stength now (Rengar-Kha, the altars on TT). Its great, i like it a lot because it is lore (the rivalry between Rengar and Kha that appears on their bio has impact when they face on the Fields, the fact that WW the mercenary (?) killed poor Urf INSIDE the field so now his spirit pops up and attacks the wolf whenever he passes by... poor Urf, he was just practicing with his spatula... I HATE YOU WW!) that has direct impact in game, it gives us geek a lot of food (the discusion around the quotes of the altar for example) and it also atracts the rest of the players who want to know what they mean.

f)New Champion's AMA (New Lore): Threads created on the Lore forums (and other spaces outside LoL page) where we ask the questions and a Red comes and answers some of them. This is ok, it helps a lot to fill the gaps left by the new Bio type (and probably would have the same effect if they were made for old bios, not saying that new bios are bad and old are good because they didnt got an AMA), it gives some clues or hints about the motivations, the goals or the relation with other characters... well a lot of stuff according to which questions the Red decides to answer. Cons? It ends up being walls of text anyway, just that because it is spread it easier to read. Is an easy way to get players closer to new characters (because you want to participate because may be a Red will answer you) but then again it just doesnt look like lore, it doesnt smell like a story, it is attractive only because of the posibility of having your doubt answered but it isnt attractive story-wise, you go and read the answers and say ok and then go play some matches, yes sometimes we see threads created about the AMAs but... i dont know how to say it, it doesnt feel like lore. Back in the old days there was much more activity on this forum and most of it were guys creating crazy theories based on stuff given by JoJ or Judgements for example. Something similar happened when you released the New TT with the quotes (BUT there you made the unbelievable mistake of moving it into the Shadow Isles without taking into accoount the impact that would mean), but i feel it was an exeption. Sorry if this is confuse but english isnt my first language so i cant express what i want to say

g)Log-in screen Lore (New Lore): This started with Elise but you didnt do it with Zed so i cant tell if this is going to continue or what, its ok i guess but not awesome. Also why would you put a song first and only after some time Elise starts talking? Most people didnt even heard her probably, kinda silly if what you want to do is attract the averege player who almost instantly logs.

So to resume, although i cant speak for what you guys are prepearing (which i asume has to be pretty damn aswesome because its taking you for ever), so far we have seen a lot of contradictions. You discontinue all the old tools you had without replacing them with almost anything, then claim that you want to give more deep and interesting stories but dont have the tools to do so. You start changing the old lore without any notice, not that you have to do so but it would be nice, or explanation (rectons, bio reworks, TT disapearing from Zaun) and in the proces you contradict several other stuff (bios like WW and karma, Maokai's origin) making the Lore even more... silly. Because back then as i already mentioned we had a lot of loose ends but now we have huge wholes of nonsense.
I understand that you want to make the Lore more atractive for the averege player, but in the proces s also give some love to the ones who have been here since the begining.

Anyway, sory for the unnecesarily long post, hope this adds something.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gixia

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNarvalOfDeath View Post
c)Judgements (Old Lore): Another "walls of text" tool may be, that is why they discontinued it along with the JoJ..
I agree with the vast majority of everything you said, but I wanted to ask for elaboration on this one point, because I freaking LOVED League Judgements. What exactly makes the League Judgments (or anything else really), a wall of text? And what exactly makes that a con? I mean, it's a written short story, it's kind of supposed to be all text, is it not? Novels are all nothing but walls of text, but you don't usually get people describing them like that's a bad thing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Larcent

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
I agree with the vast majority of everything you said, but I wanted to ask for elaboration on this one point, because I freaking LOVED League Judgements. What exactly makes the League Judgments (or anything else really), a wall of text? And what exactly makes that a con? I mean, it's a written short story, it's kind of supposed to be all text, is it not? Novels are all nothing but walls of text, but you don't usually get people describing them like that's a bad thing.
League of Legends isn't a novel. It's a game. That's the con. The reason I ranted earlier about "storytelling" vs. "writing" is because whatever story you tell needs to fit the medium that the story is in. League Judgements and the Journal of Justice didn't. They literally were not even in the game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheNarvalOfDeath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
I agree with the vast majority of everything you said, but I wanted to ask for elaboration on this one point, because I freaking LOVED League Judgements. What exactly makes the League Judgments (or anything else really), a wall of text? And what exactly makes that a con? I mean, it's a written short story, it's kind of supposed to be all text, is it not? Novels are all nothing but walls of text, but you don't usually get people describing them like that's a bad thing.

Dont get me wrong, i dont mean i disliked JoJ or Judgements, i considered them great. I was just using the expresion kitae used. As far as i can tell the new direction the lore is heading is trying to avoid "long" texts that dont really attract a lot of people (the average guy just goes tl,dr), i love them because i like reading , but common guys dont really enjoy this activity right? So i think that the Lore department is looking for "new ways" of delivering the lore that dont include so much reading (probably something along the lines of the altar quotes and stuff), that is what i meant by saying that Judgements being "walls of text" was a con, a con for the Lore dept, not for me u.u

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larcent View Post
League of Legends isn't a novel. It's a game. That's the con. The reason I ranted earlier about "storytelling" vs. "writing" is because whatever story you tell needs to fit the medium that the story is in. League Judgements and the Journal of Justice didn't. They literally were not even in the game.
This is exactly waht i mean, i think this is what the Lore department wants, not that i like it so much, if it was for me i would love to have all the lore in all the posible ways!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gixia

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larcent View Post
League of Legends isn't a novel. It's a game. That's the con. The reason I ranted earlier about "storytelling" vs. "writing" is because whatever story you tell needs to fit the medium that the story is in. League Judgements and the Journal of Justice didn't. They literally were not even in the game.
I agree with that, but considering the nature of League's gameplay, there's only so much story that can be told through it. Things like the TT altars, champion interactions and personalities conveyed through animations and quotes, and even the Noxus vs. Ionia match are great and all, but can only go so far. They serve (mostly) more to give the champions character than to actually progress a plotline. You can't really tell the story of the details that take place in between matches this way. Ultimately, to actually make the storyline progress, tools outside of gameplay are required, and in that regard, I don't see what makes novels and short stories inherantly inferior to say, comics or film, all of which are things Kitae and the lore guys have said in the past that they would like to do someday. Ultimately though, I don't really care which method is chosen, so long it still has some sort of connection that can draw it back towards gameplay in the end, so as to give the game context, whereas the lore department seems to be pushing in the opposite direction and trying to distance it from gameplay as much as possible.