@Xypherous Black Cleaver and the lack of stacking deterent

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Ellio

Junior Member

12-12-2012

I know you have some nerfs already lined up for Black Cleaver in the next patch, but I would like to discuss whether or not these number tweaks will actually prevent Black Cleaver stacking. I think the main reason people stack Black Cleaver (besides the strong numbers) is that fact that this is the only penetration item that has no deterrent to stacking. Let's look at all the other penetration items:

Armor Penetration:
Brutalizer - Both the cooldown reduction and the armor penetration are unique, so stacking this item us useless.

Youmuu's Ghostblade - While the penetration isn't unique on this item, the active is, and multiple Ghostblades would share the same active cooldown, so stacking this item would also be useless.

Last Whisper - The armor penetration is unique, so stacking this item is useless.

Magic Penetration:
Sorcerer's Shoes - The penetration component isn't unique, but the movement speed part is, and honestly, one shoe is more than enough, thank you.

Void Staff - Penetration component is unique.

Liandry's Torment - Both the penetration and the passive are unique, so stacking this item is pointless too.

Haunting Guise - I saved this item for last because it is most similar to Black Cleaver, except that the penetration on this item is unique. I would actually venture to say that if the passive weren't unique, stacking Haunting Guises might be viable (except that both the numbers aren't as efficient as Black Cleavers and it's not an end game item as Black Cleaver is).


The moral of my story is that unless you make either the flat penetration component or the percent penetration component (or both) unique, I fear the incentive to stack Black Cleavers may not vanish with a simple number nerf.

Thanks for reading,
Ellio

P.S. Just to warn you, Hextech Gunblade currently is the only source of stackable spellvamp with very efficient stats. I foresee stacking it on champions like Akali or Jax once the Black Cleaver nerf hits. I mean I'm sure you already knew that, but just thought I'd throw in a heads up.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-12-2012

TBH, there's not really a problem with stacking cleavers. If everyone stacks cleavers, you stack health. If someone has % magic damage, pick up a SV, BV, Abyss, or QSS. If the carry stacks damage because someone else has a cleaver stack, then get Omen & Froz <3, because you'll still have 2/3 the armor against the carry's flat damage, all the health, the double passive, and the active. Iceborn Gauntlet (the new Fist) is also really great on a bruiser/tank moving to counter a carry. If the enemy carry stacks cleavers, then they're not going to carry; stack health and proceed to slow-roll the enemy.

EDIT: However, I do agree that pen & CDR are something Riot should be consistent about. I'm divided on whether the BC passive should be unique, as stacking solely for that purpose is rather trollish (and not as effective as other things). Bottom line, the new BC injects the notion of counterplay into the game in a way that wasn't really here before. For that, I give Riot a thumbs-up.


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Dennis Rodmang

Junior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumains View Post
TBH, there's not really a problem with stacking cleavers. If everyone stacks cleavers, you stack health. If someone has % magic damage, pick up a SV, BV, Abyss, or QSS.
Perhaps you missed out on the fact that the BLACK CLEAVER also does buttloads of dmg and mitigates w/e little armour u had to begin with. Sure, stack HP, do no dmg and get melted by the CDR and +50 attack dmg. Not to mention that same guy also is now stacking HP as well cuz his black cleaver comes with it built in. Grats on ur warmogs though, enjoy dying in 2 hits still.

You're retarded. Go back to bot games plz, they're around your skill level.

Stacking black cleavers is broken in every game mode for any champion that has at least 1 physical dmg dealing ability. There is no point for AD champs to do anything else 'cept stack black cleavers cuz they out play all other items currently.

Get with the times kid. There's a reason there's 100+ posts daily about "Black Cleaver OP".


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TealNinje

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Rodmang View Post
Perhaps you missed out on the fact that the BLACK CLEAVER also does buttloads of dmg and mitigates w/e little armour u had to begin with. Sure, stack HP, do no dmg and get melted by the CDR and +50 attack dmg. Not to mention that same guy also is now stacking HP as well cuz his black cleaver comes with it built in. Grats on ur warmogs though, enjoy dying in 2 hits still.

You're retarded. Go back to bot games plz, they're around your skill level.

Stacking black cleavers is broken in every game mode for any champion that has at least 1 physical dmg dealing ability. There is no point for AD champs to do anything else 'cept stack black cleavers cuz they out play all other items currently.

Get with the times kid. There's a reason there's 100+ posts daily about "Black Cleaver OP".
You're losing to Black Cleaver spam?

I think it's time to find a new occupation.

It's not like Randuin's Omen hardcounters Black Cleaver, so much so that JUST RANDUIN'S OMEN WILL DOUBLE YOUR SURVIVAL RATE AGAINST 4 BLACK CLEAVERS.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

12-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Rodmang View Post
Perhaps you missed out on the fact that the BLACK CLEAVER also does buttloads of dmg and mitigates w/e little armour u had to begin with. Sure, stack HP, do no dmg and get melted by the CDR and +50 attack dmg. Not to mention that same guy also is now stacking HP as well cuz his black cleaver comes with it built in. Grats on ur warmogs though, enjoy dying in 2 hits still.

. . .

Get with the times kid. There's a reason there's 100+ posts daily about "Black Cleaver OP".
The personal insults and harassment aside, allow me some sarcasm. "Oooooooh, 50 AD! That's gonna tear through my 4000, 5000, 7000 hit points. And I get to build hp faster than you can build cleavers, cause warmogs is much cheaper than even one of them. What's that? Warmogs doesn't do damage? I guess you've never seen Atma's Impaler. Suddenly 5000 hit points gives me 150-200 AD, with a 15% chance to double that. I wonder what Infinity Edge would do on top of that. 40% chance to hit for 500 AD? you have no armor or hit points? I think you're the one getting 3-shotted. But you know what's better than Infinity Atmogs on a tank? Infinity Atmogs on Dr. Mundo . . . Or Sion. Is that doable every game? Every game the enemy builds 25-30 cleavers it is. Why are there "100+ posts daily about 'Black Cleaver OP'"? Maybe because too few people have bothered to look at what's actually happening, and been creative about how to handle it.

Of course, someone who hasn't given much thought to what can happen might say, "what about Liandry's?" And that's actually a fair question, if you've never heard of Spirit Visage (because mpen doesn't benefit item procs, and regen hard-counters DoTs). Or someone might say, "what about the carry stacking IEs?" Also a fair question, in which case it's important to note that 4 cleavers only shreds 30% of your armor. While the 4-cleaver noob may get 100% penetration, the penetration-less carry only gets the 30% shred, so build an Omen: 500 hp hard-counters the 4-cleaver noob, and the remaining 50 armor reduces the carry's damage by 30% more. Of course, his runes and masteries might get him another 20 armor pen, so you're left with 30 more armor that cuts his damage down by only 25%. But that's not all! Because Omen reduces the carry's AS by 20%, so his damage is actually cut by 30%. So if 100 armor (post shred), 3% damage reduction, 20% AS reduction, for a total of 60%+ damage reduction against the only damage dealer on the enemy team isn't enough for you, grab a Frozen Heart, Iceborn Gauntlet, or Thornmail, for another 40 - 70 armor (after shred) and lots of other cool stuff too! But the best part? We've only used 3-4 item slots, which leaves us 1 slot for the obligatory boots, and one slot for something fun, like a Deathcap, IE, or Atma's of our own.

So please, think about these things and don't follow a cookie-cutter build; your victorious teammates will thank you. Or you can play Vlad, the right way, and show them all what "OP" really means.

P.S. Apologies that the overly sarcastic post seems necessary.


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CkretAznMan

Junior Member

12-13-2012

Well, playing through a few games I would definitely like the Armor Reduction passive on Black Cleaver to be unique, since it would deter people from going multiple Black Cleavers. As fun as it was, it is pretty silly when someone is seen building them. *Fiora*

I actually liked building Youmu's Ghostblade with Black Cleaver but now it's a choice of "either or", so now those two items being in the same build aren't viable anymore but 2 Black Cleavers still are. I think that's a problem because I like my items being diverse, but oh well.