Peli's Fiora Rework Ideas

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kaz1nsky

Senior Member

01-10-2013

Sounds interesting, but one cannot lung and parry. It would be like Martin Lawrence hiding behind a flipped over table holding a gun over it shooting in the air. It doesn't make much sense putting these skills together. Also the lunge or parry would typically be wasted since you probably won't parry if you are chasing someone, or probably won't lunge if you are dueling someone (i.e. you'd only activate the lunge to get the parry). The only time it would be useful is initiating a 1v1 and hoping the person stands there.

What if you put the parry on the w? It fits the whole "discipline and determination" idea and it would help with escapes and survivability when getting focused or dueling.


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masterdragon481

Senior Member

01-10-2013

Okay, I see where you are coming from with the Q and again, seeing as to how I have not actually played her, I can't really say how that change would play out. So, keeping in mind the extreme chance of your ideas actually being implemented, that would have to be something that was balanced after seeing it in action. At the very least. Not saying you are wrong or right about that; jury is still out. Though I definitely see where you are coming from.

Back to the passive. You are right, Vlad does have inherit healing. But I would argue that part of the reason he has that inherit healing is because of his E and how it functions. And although Fiora doesn't have any inherit sustain other than this passive which, you are right; at early levels wouldn't be significant. As soon as you get a vamp scepter she will start to heal for crazy amounts. Vlad is limited to healing (prior to getting a revolver) with an ability at best on a three second cooldown where fiora may not heal for a straight amount as much but with a 2.0 attack speed (not impossible on her, right?) will heal for a crazy high amount. When she gets a hydra its even greater.

To try to keep myself on topic here, ill try to address each thing you have said.

First, yea, its less than vlad, I just can't add. or read. mostly can't read. =p

Second, yes Vlad is manaless, but Fiora doesn't need to spend mana to autoattack and subsequently use her passive, so for the purpose of talking about her heal and sustain, the fact that she has a mana bar and vlad doesn't does not seem too important.

Third, true, vlad does have range it makes it easier to get that sustain. But again, its only once every three seconds or four seconds? at max rank. Once you get the revolver its more (and the Q does more) but you are still cooldown dependent. Also, considering you hurt yourself with E you need to make that up as well. Not saying you wont, but it does hurt his sustain more than autoattacking with lifesteal. especially considering again, the "cooldown" on an auto attack is much shorter than vlad. Now, if you build AD vlad, this would be a different discussion, but since his auto attacks don't do damage and he doesn't build lifesteal...........

Fourth. I confess that I missed the part where it can only stack more than once against champions. That does reduce my concerns a little bit. However, bear in mind that if you are going full AP on vlad (no warmogs) you will still kill yourself using you E if you dont hit anything with it. So keeping full stacks on him won't help you sustain. It actually hurts you more than it helps (again, assuming you are hitting nothing with it). Now, im really trying to keep items out of the analysis here, with the exception of the revolver and the vampiric scepter since they are kinda important for the discussion as they provide the minimum sustain each champ will take. With warmogs and / or spirit visage, vlad might be able to outsustain the damage he does to himself, im not sure. But again, thats not what I was driving at with this.

Fifth, wasn't saying vlad's E was bad or anything, I know its AOE and I know it ups the damage, but it also ups the cost. Its just that this fiora passive is 3/4's a level 5 ability of a champion, in terms of regen. It just seems a little high to me. I do think this is a really good passive, I just feel like the numbers are too high. Lifesteal is already very strong and it might be too much healing. Again, im not sure about any of this, it would need to be tested, but thats the impression I get from it.


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Ayestes

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Honestly I think all Fiora needs is a Riposte defensive buff and a minor change to her passive.

Riposte should offer some possible Armor, MR, and/or Tenacity while active that lingers for a couple seconds once triggered. This alleviates a lot of her perceived squishiness and gives her tools to outplay a variety of opponents.

The Duelist passive should pop up to two stacks on minion last hits and stack up to six times on champions. This makes it so longer engages on champions are even better for Fiora, and gives her a little extra sustain as long as she is last hitting.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaz1nsky View Post
Sounds interesting, but one cannot lung and parry.
One cannot turn a stuffed teddy into a flaming monster of destruction...doesn't stop Annie from doing it anyway...

It's a fantasy video game...no need for technicalities as long as it looks good.

And good feedback. Thanks folks.

I don't expect everyone to have the same ideas...just as long as everyone agrees that SOMETHING needs to be changed to fix her...


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Ayestes

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Yeah this is a wonderful fountain of ideas. It'll be up to Riot to determine how much actually needs to be done. I'll admit, I think she is pretty close to where she needs to be and even in her current state she is still within the realm of viability. She just has a few extra hurdles to jump that she shouldn't have to.


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ChampAtog

Senior Member

01-14-2013

There are things about this I like and things about it I hate. Her passive affecting lifesteal would be a little bit insane, lifesteal was nerfed a bit for a reason, being able to just lifesteal to full after trading poorly was absolutely overpowered, and having her passive stacks + spirit visage would just be terrifying sustain on her, maybe having it affect lifesteal at a reduced rate, or having it stack multiplicatively with other sources of healing multipliers? If not Spirit Visage plus her passive would be 56% of your lifesteal as bonus lifesteal, and that would be disgusting. That aside I really like everything about this kit, having her W remove movement impairment (root and slow) on cast would be another thing that would be good for her. Not gunna deny Fiora's in a tough place, and these skills wouldn't make her overpowered either.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Numbers could always be adjusted, of course.

But honestly, I don't think the life steal issue is a big one.

For one, she has to hit players to take advantage of the passive.

Life steal was over bearing because you could just hit creeps and get the full value of lifesteal. It was especially bad on champs with on hit effects that life stole off the skill's base damage as well (looking at you GP).

But Fiora has no on hit skills besides her Ult, which won't be hitting creeps anyway.

Fiora doesn't even have any range. So I don't see Fiora being an issue even with the current values.

Let's face it, Fiora could use the life steal crutch...her trading ability is awful...this is likely the only way to make her a decent laner without fully changing the feel of her play.


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ChampAtog

Senior Member

01-14-2013

I feel like everything except the lifesteal boost is great, but (correct me if I'm wrong) even if Fiora's only hitting minions, if she just got to full stacks off a champ, hitting minions will reset the duration of the stacks and keep her at full stacks, even if she's not gaining stacks, this means Fiora would be able to trade with an enemy, then hit minions to lifesteal up while they pop potions, then go right back in. She'd be a little too much of a lane bully, especially when one Bloodthirster and a Spirit Visage gives you over 25% lifesteal along with all the others stats, and I don't think she would need a numbers nerf on the stacks/max stacks, just having it interact with other sources of healing amplification (like visage) the same way tenacity stacks would balance it out very well.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-14-2013

Who has a bloodthirster and a SV in lane phase!? If you do, the game is already over...

Realistically, in lane you are looking at a vamp scepter, maybe 2.

So even with 2 vamp scepters built you are looking at 4.8% bonus life steal with full stacks of passive.

It really isn't going to break anything...


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Ayestes

Senior Member

01-14-2013

If I could interject here, I think her trading potential isn't really that far off from where it should be. Q combos and a Riposte are effective in damage output. Her current passive while pretty weak in general is not meaningless and helps repair her a bit after a trade as well. It's also completely possible to have a 3k item completed while still within the laning phase, and at least for me I commonly have a BotRK long before it'd ever be considered mid-game.

Regarding Peligrad's passive suggestion, I think it works very well in the early game. It's late game that I see issue with it. Fiora already has wonderful synergy with life steal. Her late game also is not problematic to me personally. As long as she breaks the ~8k item barrier she's only going to start exponentially scaling into the late game. Do I think it'd break Fiora? No, I think she'd be okay with it. The only problem is I think this change alone would do too much, and not allow much else to get changed. I for example, would really like Riot to take a look at Riposte. I do want the passive increased in power, but I'd prefer it be more towards her having early game sustain and trading repair potential.