"Madstone" Junglers, Especially Udyr

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JkwanJoobz

Junior Member

05-25-2014

I think this style of play needs to be nerfed.

Not the champions.
Not the feral flare.

Please make the jungle items exclusive of one another.

I've been in multiple games today where and Udyr power farmed until he was a full item and three levels above the rest of the players. I understand that my jungler should have been pressuring lanes where the Udyr did not, but they were both farming for a flare advantage later in the game. The Udyr came out much stronger and farmed and there was nothing my team could do about it.

I feel that the main issue with this new build is that it has a very high payoff with a small skill level requirement.


I would love to hear other peoples' thoughts on this. Please share.


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Cdwwg

Senior Member

05-25-2014

The thing about Udyr is that he needs to be in melee range to do a SINGLE thing to you. If he's out of melee range, he's the most useless champ in the game.

Now, the reason for Udyr being so strong in the jungle is SIMPLY because creeps don't move. He's held back ENTIRELY by the absolute need to get into melee range of you. If that wasn't the issue, he'd be stupidly OP. Any sort of CC / kiting screws him insanely hard. None of that's an issue in the jungle.

While he's always been that way, he's been beatable. He could exploit level leads but would struggle sustaining himself in the jungle which would keep him tame from being too strong. With the introduction of the new Spirit Stone, he was able to sustain way better and keep on farming. Now, again, nothing about that was overpowered since 1-3 level leads won't win you the game single handedly. The BIG problem is the new introduction of Feral Flare. Not only has it made his camp clears OBNOXIOUSLY strong, it's made his ability to exploit level leads way too easy. Where does the overpowered factor come in? With the fact that he gets MASSIVE power spikes JUST by exploiting how incredible his farming is.

Riot needs to get it through their head that endless scaling items / abilities are NOT good for the game. They're stupid for even introducing that item without considering just how exploitable it is by certain champions who were once tame without it. Udyr is probably one of the biggest examples of this. That item is toxic, not Udyr. You take out that item, he goes back to being tame. Other champions like Xin, Yi, etc etc? They all go back to being situational / viable under the right circumstances without being underpowered. For some ridiculous reason, Riot thought it was a good idea to give them absurdly high power spikes in the form of 1 item to the point where they're 100% bans on the level of old Kassadin.


Spirit Stone and Udyr's kit are not the issues. Feral Flare is, and that item's taken all of the once strong junglers, crapped on them, shifted the entire meta over to duelists, then made half of them borderline OP or just blatantly OP. Also, madstone is a clever exploit of 2 items that have incredible synergy for junglers. That "playstyle" can only be made possible by exploiting the Feral Flare's endless scaling.


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Hrothgar the red

Junior Member

05-25-2014

Honestly points have been made but the item feral flare can just be fixed with caps and leveling. Or start those massive buffs they have been talking about> : )


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Pashyx

Junior Member

05-25-2014

You kill you early game by doing madstone getting another jungle item without actual def or ofensive stats hurts

also riot is workign in the exp thing


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Cdwwg

Senior Member

05-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pashyx View Post
You kill you early game by doing madstone getting another jungle item without actual def or ofensive stats hurts

also riot is workign in the exp thing
The point of madstone is that you sacrifice your early game kill potential in exchange for a massive mid-game damage spike + item lead + level lead which is far greater than getting a couple kills off ganks early.

You don't need defensive / offensive stats when you're Udyr who can simply outrun just about anyone in his jungle. If you know Udyr's mechanics such as timing his abilities / combo's, you CAN out-duel or hugely-harm an enemy jungler who tries to counter-jungle you. Worst case, you get away as he's also left with 10% health and your teammates clean him up.


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Adrian Umbra

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Senior Member

05-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
Riot needs to get it through their head that endless scaling items / abilities are NOT good for the game. They're stupid for even introducing that item without considering just how exploitable it is by certain champions who were once tame without it. Udyr is probably one of the biggest examples of this. That item is toxic, not Udyr. You take out that item, he goes back to being tame. Other champions like Xin, Yi, etc etc? They all go back to being situational / viable under the right circumstances without being underpowered. For some ridiculous reason, Riot thought it was a good idea to give them absurdly high power spikes in the form of 1 item to the point where they're 100% bans on the level of old Kassadin.
Here's pretty much the only reason that I didn't upvote your comment. Yi didn't really change with the introduction of FF. He played the exact same way. He just scaled a little better. The problem was mostly YOLOqueue coordination being low, which led to him being a problem with a high ban rate due to people not wanting to pick a ganking jungler and/or a lot of hard CC to counteract him. And you'll notice the near zero ban rate for him right now? The fact that he was never picked among the pros? Yi isn't really a problem anymore.

Furthermore, it gave auto attacking junglers who dealt some magic damage options that they didn't have before. WW didn't like either SotEL or SotAG. Nocturne was in a similar situation. Same with Xin. You're blaming an item built for these sorts of junglers for bringing them out of the woodwork. Many of them were considered underpowered in the first place. You'll notice that almost all of them have subsequently faded back into the woodwork with the nerfs to FF.

Your reply wouldn't have been out of place a month ago. But unless people are all of a sudden doing a lot of Jax jungle with FF, NONE of the top ten ranked bans are FF junglers. NONE of the FF junglers are top ten play rates in ranked. And only WW is in top ten win rates for ranked. FF is NOT a problem right now. Proper counter play WILL DESTROY any jungler taking the Madstone option as they AFKfarm their jungle for the first 20 minutes. Letting Udyr just farm all game is akin to letting a Nasus run amok top lane. You should know how to deal with it.


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Muay Thai Wizard

Junior Member

05-26-2014

all they really have to do is make it so they limit one of each like they do with the finished spirit items/ wriggles. I think the madstone junglers will still preform well with the change.