Fix Blackfire please

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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.
Which part of the item did you nerf? This is important.


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urmamasllama

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?

What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%??
its probably a case of being too late in most cases unfortunately we are on a pretty bad downward spiral. but i even despite this i still believe a dedicated tutorial for dominion would help greatly to at least get the message across to new players. the same goes for TT and TT has a better chance of it working.

you really need to address a lot of the existing items that are unique to dominion for instance lightbringer and entropy are not in good places imo. mages aren't the only ones that have had problems ranged AD carries have also suffered if they didn't benefit from building triforce and brutalizer, or just stacking attack speed

also breath nome, breath its ok


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konfetarius

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game?
Nome, you could do a lot better by communicating that sort of thing as a reasoning for your changes. I don't think Sauron is so much annoyed at the massive, seemingly random changes as much as at the lack of communication and dialogue accompanying them.

Like, you are trying to solve the "lack of game phases?" Explain what that is, why is it a problem, and your overall plans for addressing it. As it stands, for example, when I read that I go "wut? Dominion very much has phases based on accumulated gold and revive (summoner) timers."


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LightEcho

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is a myth I want to address right now so we don't have to talk about this any more. I've said many times that there's a lack of causation here for many reasons.

1. Ranked makes up a negligible amount of our playerbase for SR and TT. The vast majority of our players do not play ranked, and have displayed no intention to.
2. Now, the argument can be made that the LACK of ranked has negative implications like discouraging organized play and competitive interest. But this is where we run into the causation issue.

I'm very well aware that the Dominion community wants ranked real bad--I do too. No really, I do! I stick up for you guys because I'm passionate about Dominion getting attention. I have my own reasons and intentions, but first and foremost I believe it's an important step to community stabilization. But don't use it as a scapegoat for why the mode is unpopular, because you're assuming causation when #1 (and I'm fully aware you guys don't have access to the statistics) speaks quite to the contrary.
I don;t play much dominion but why don't I just throw out the idea you implement ranked teams for Dominion. As in ranked 5s but not ranked solo.


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Ragias

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I still think there is a need for Dom to at least be seen as competitive even if very few players would actually play ranked, its existence would legitimize the mode more. Some Riot sponsored tournaments could help show what is good and what isn't. People don't like Dominion because they can't understand it. It isn't a straight forward kill the other team and kill their base. TT at least has the benefit of having the same goals and general flow as SR. I think publicity and education would help a lot of this. Though I don't really know anything so my opinion really doesn't matter.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

In every game, the competitive community is 1% or less, so no surprises there, you are ignoring how that 1% affects the other 99%.

I could explain again but i would just repeat my post, read the second part about evidence plz.

If you claim that balance perception is a problem, ranked is the solution, even if only 0,1% of players play it. The number doesn't surprise me, i know it because its true in every game in existence, and it doesn't change my point at all.

The solution of casuals having false perception of balance or game properties, its to create evidence that change the perception, for that you need ranked.
If you claim there is a problem that is not related to false perception (like you claim lack of game phases and lack of progression which are true) you can change that, if it makes a better game, but the property that is welcome of dominion is that it doesn't have those, to me bad properties. So the solution doesn't seem to be to fix it either.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
1. Ranked makes up a negligible amount of our playerbase for SR and TT. The vast majority of our players do not play ranked, and have displayed no intention to

But don't use it as a scapegoat for why the mode is unpopular, because you're assuming causation when #1 (and I'm fully aware you guys don't have access to the statistics) speaks quite to the contrary.
That doesn't logically follow.

I will throw an example. 99% of the population that plays soccer, does it casually and never intend to play seriously. you imply that if leagues and tournametns of soccer wouldn't exist then it would have no impact on the population of soccer? (this is besides my previous point of the impact of perception that 1% causes on 99%, but since we are on it, do not you think that the 1% have TREMENDOUS impact on how soccer is played and perceived by the other 99% of the population?)


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Nome or Die

Game Designer

11-14-2012
7 of 10 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterD103 View Post
In every game, the competitive community is 1% or less, so no surprises there, you are ignoring how that 1% affects the other 99%.

I could explain again but i would just repeat my post, read the second part about evidence plz.

If you claim that balance perception is a problem, ranked is the solution, even if only 0,1% of players play it. The number doesn't surprise me, i know it because its true in every game in existence, and it doesn't change my point at all.

The solution of casuals having false perception of balance or game properties, its to create evidence that change the perception, for that you need ranked.
If you claim there is a problem that is not related to false perception (like you claim lack of game phases and lack of progression which are true) you can change that, if it makes a better game, but the property that is welcome of dominion is that it doesn't have those, to me bad properties. So the solution doesn't seem to be to fix it either.
I've already talked about this in another thread. There is a lack of infrastructure to actually support any knowledge percolation.

For the other things you guys bring up, YES, I will eventually talk about those, and YES, I will involve the community in finding a solution.


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naotasan

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?

What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players?
If you want players to stop leaving Dominion we need to show that it's being supported. A lot of people I talk to who don't play Dominion don't take it seriously because they believe Riot ditched it. This leads them to believe there is no competitive side to it which is the entire "ranked" argument.

Additionally, the players at the top 1% or so need to play Dominion and provide some feedback for RiotNome to work with. We are the ones who can help shape the future of this game to be the best it can be!

Quote:
What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%?
This top player base should be feeding Riot with information like a alpha or beta test would. We have the game experience with hours and hours dumped into this. And by feeding, I mean seeing the games we play and then using that information to decide if this item on that champion truely is op in the Dominion game mode (that's just one example)

Quote:
What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back?
After this pre-season stuff is over (which may probably last after the season actually starts) and things are fixed, it should be advertised and promoted like the new TT rework. Not as if Dominion is getting reworked, but the same attention. Maybe even have an increase IP reward for Dominion for a single weekend to encourage players to try it out again.
Have big named Riot Employees make a tutorial video for Dominion and a tutorial map. Talking to the community here would be an amazing feature. Imagine Phreak giving a Dominion tutorial video and he actually knows what he's talking about! Or at least regurgitating knowledge that is researched by the best players.

Quote:
How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game?
I believe that this issue isn't the job of Riot to take care of. This should be discussed by the community. You know where new SR players go for help? Forums and websites with guides - things fueled by the community. Riot SHOULD be keeping their eyes on the community so they can see what their players think and observe.

But to really get new players or bring players back, you have to ask them what the issues are for why they don't play it as much. A lot of the issues are misconceptions about Dominion.

Remember when you were a kid and someone spread a rumor, and a week later the rumor sounds nothing like the original story? That's what has happened to Dominion.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, that cursor bug. That's also making players not play. And yes, it effects e good amount of people.


I went into a few SR games during the 10 win give away thing and explained to players that I came from Dominion. When I asked why they don't play it or try it out, the top 3 things I hear are "Too many unbalanced champions, it's just a zerg rush to the towers, there's no ranked"

If it were possible to have Riot collaborate with the top players in the Dominion community to create some sort of PSA youtube video or Tutorial walk-through to show how one should play Dominion and how there IS a strategy and tactic to the game, and show that it CAN be competitive.


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SkysMoon

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?

What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players? What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%?? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game? You focus on Blackfire Torch, but among the sea of real problems that Dominion has, that really should be barely a consideration. It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.

These aren't buzzwords. This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
As a rebuttal, what was the purpose of BFT in the first place? You state all these problems, yet how did this item address any of them? The answer here seems to be scapegoating the fact that a completely unacceptable imba item was released with no remorse. How can we trust that you actually do understand that problems? I've spoken with my lower elo college friends; without actually giving my opinion, they have ranted about the stupidity that teemo and singed (among others) are for them. These champions were extremely frustrating for them to begin with.

Aside, what does nerfing BFT next patch solve? A way for players to say, "hah! they can't even release balanced items on a map that I don't care about, they must not care just the same!" Why wait an entire patch cycle? Fix it now to show you care, fix it now because we care.

This did nothing to help hold new players hands in Dominion, it did nothing to address any of the apparrent problems. Maybe you had some people check out the game mode because "ooo, new shiny item let's try it". You broke their toes as they tried to cross into dominion territory, and, yeah, you probably scared them off with tears streaming down there face. It did nothing but make the state of any level of play worse. Stop blaming the problem on the state of Dominion and actually address it. Avoiding the problems doesn't fix anything.