Fix Blackfire please

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Ikruti

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Hopefully I can contribute one more feedback data point (I have close to 1800 games in Dominion, almost 1000 wins, not that that means anything really).

1. This has been mentioned earlier but really drives home the feeling of the forgotten child, the tips in Dominion talk about Baron and Dragon. It immediately gives a feeling of Dominion as an afterthought.

2. The end of Season 2 rewards felt to me to really enforce the status of Riot not really caring about Dominion. It said "Work real hard and do well in SR and TT and you get rewards! Look at that neat new icon you get and the shiny new skin! Work real hard and do well in Dominion and you get...nothing." It gave the people saying that Riot thinks Dominion is a joke mode and not serious even more ammunition.

3. Moving every single Dominion related thread from GD to Dominion. It's gives the image that Riot is trying to hide Dominion.

I understand that there are probably many reasons why those things happened. However one of the major issues is perception. Riot does from time to time come and discuss things with the Dominion community and that is great. However that's sort of preaching to the choir. If you frequent the Dominion forum, if you are on DominateDominion, you're already a convert. What needs to be done is proselytizing the unconvinced masses.


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SPG Neostyle

Member

11-15-2012

Disc forced me to say something about this so I'll do that now ;p

Some people might know me, some don't. I'm a player from the eu-w team "thaiboy incoming" and I was one of the top10 (at least elo) players on eu-w.

I know that you want to improve dominion nome and some new items are maybe not bad, but I don't think that it will help us to get more player. What can we do to get more players on this mode, or help the other "99,99%" to improve? - Ranked.

Yes I know that it already been said but it IS the only way to get a bigger playerbase, people need competitive in this mode and yes I know that you want this too, nome. I just want to make clear that it's the only way I can see to get us more player/help the current player improve, I mean what are the sr player doing if they want to improve? Most of them watch guides/streams from high elo sr players, cause they can trust them somehow. If I'd want to help someone he'd most likely not listen or just argue that it's a fun mode anyway (what is kinda true cause there is no ranked yet).

I know that the people from Riot that have to decide over dominion ranked disagree, but that was just my point of view with current dominion.

Btw current dominion: I "quit" dominion for now (I will most likely still play for the tournaments and maybe some custom games), it's just no fun at the moment - 1 hour queues for 15-20 minutes games where you have to pick stuff that is at least tier2 cause blind pick is imba like hell - no thanks.

That is not a result of this thread or a demonstration, I just wanted to share my thoughts.

Sorry for any grammar mistakes, not my native language.


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TechPrince

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Seriously disable blackfire in dominion. Ridiculously overpowered and every AP champ is rushing it. Why did they disable new AD items and kept the new AP items as it is thats with new hextech sweeper already present? And no i wont be playing until this gets fixed or disabled.


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BADBOY FLYGIRL

Junior Member

11-15-2012

I feel like Blackfire Torch is a step in the wrong direction, especially when discussion of how to fix AD casters crops up. While it's great for literally anyone that uses AP, BFT isn't FOR AP mages. Someone like Amumu or Maokai can get just BFT and then stack defensive items and if you don't second guess it, they will kill you. So yes, while it does help against Dominion's rampant AD bruiser meta, I feel like it's been turned on its head and now AP anybody is king. Too much AD on your team and you're likely to lose.

Also, I feel like I'm out of mana much more frequently than I used to be, and Health Packs don't offer anywhere near enough to compensate. I'm not sure what lowering the mana regen rate really solved, or if there was even a problem with it to begin with.


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Palladine

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Here's my opinion on a few things said here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome
What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players?
I believe that Dominion has some major strengths and core differences from SR that need to be emphasized and made public.

Myself and a small LAN party (team of 4 or team of 5) play Dominion almost exclusively since it came out for the following reasons:

1. Dominion games, in our experience, have far better player attitude and behavior than Summoner's Rift games.

2. Dominion games are far more often in our experience likely to be "good" or "close" games because of the comeback mechanics and the inevitability of scaling. Every champion scales in Dominion (assuming the game isn't over in 9 minutes), so all champions have at least the opportunity to be in their strong phase of the game.

3. I believe Dominion has much better pacing that Summoner's Rift. Large-scale strategy in Dominion is prevalent through the entire match, instead of being concentrated only after everyone has enough resources to perform their roles in an appropriate manner.

I believe this is stronger game design in general. It makes more of the minutes spent in game spent actively working on winning the game, rather than overcoming the scarcity of resources through farming and playing passively/defensively in order to avoid feeding one's opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron

5). Possibly making draft queue the only queue for Dominion. Again, probably not the game designer's field.
Also, I strongly disagree with Sauron about removing Blind Pick and making Draft the only game mode in Dominion.

I understand that there are clear tiers of champions in Dominion, and there are a class of champions that are too strong. Forcing players to ban them is just avoiding the issue that they are too strong.

Bans stop being an actual strategic choice (assuming you don't know your opponents well, such as in random queues) when there are a number of overpowered champions equal to the number of bans, and don't even address the problem at all when there are more overpowered champions than bans available.

I believe instead, the fixes to champion imbalance in Dominion come down to these two primary items:

1. Re-balance base stats and do a sweeping pass on balance of champions with respect to "natural tankiness". A large portion of the extremely strong champions on Dominion are strong because they have a good ratio of damage done to their natural defenses without stacking defensive items. Jax and Jayce get to stack almost purely offensive items, and yet are very hard to kill because of their intrinsic defensive abilities.

The inverse of this is also true, where champions, through their kits or base stats, get to build entirely defensive items and still do enough damage to fulfill their roles at a top-tier level. Yorick & Kassadin (and to a lesser degree, Ryze & Singed) are examples of this. They get a powerful offense for free, and therefore get to build defenses without any tradeoff.

I believe that all champions should have to choose to some degree through their item builds whether they want to be tanky or do large amounts of damage to other champions. Some champions (almost all top-tier champions in Dominion) simply don't have to do this because of their kit.

2. Alternatives and incentives should be provided to play champions other than high-mobility & gap-closer based champions. Many of the strong champions on Dominion are also strong because they get to perform their roles in relative safety from gap-closers because of their inherent mobility.

Ezreal and Vayne are almost always stronger picks than other ADCs on Dominion because they have inherent mobility and the ability to perform their role at a level as high as others in the same class of champion, but at the same time, they are able to do so much more safely. They are punished far less than other champions if the player is not appropriately positioned in a team-fight.

I'd recommend making adjustments to (mostly older) champions to give players on Dominion a real reason to choose a less mobile champion in a particular role over a more mobile champion.

As a final note, I believe that Dominion (and any game!) can be a fun, enjoyable experience without being balanced to a hair. I don't believe it is the best for this mode for it to be balanced to such a degree where simple, minor player mistakes are extremely likely to cause a loss.

I'd recommend instead focusing on the strong points of Dominion (fast-paced, team-based strategy without worrying about resources), while working on the inherent problems with lots of communication with us about the possible future of the game-mode.


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MMKH

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Lol, apparently BFT triggers on Corki's Gatling Gun. AP Corki suddenly viable again.

Anyways I think BFT needs to do reduced damage on AOE and DoTs again, and needs to not be a rushed, meta-item. As it stands, you could buy this item on anyone who has spells regardless of physical or magic damage, and scales directly off MPen and the enemy's HP.

There is basically no counterplay. Buying MR just means you die slower but you do not enough damage to kill the people who abuse this item the most. This needs to be an optional item that works in situational builds, not a mandatory one of whoever buys it first wins the game.


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Nny

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Member

11-15-2012

Quick mathcraft on BFT.

The item adds, roughly, 1.7% max HP per DoT tick (Not including the two extra ticks).

so

1000 HP = 17 damage
1500 HP = 26 damage
2000 HP = 34 damage
2500 HP = 43 damage

900 HP is about what we start with with prospector item. 2000 is average champion HP at level 18 with no HP items, so 2500 is roughly what you're looking at for an average dominion player.

The normal AP ratio on a DoT is normally around 0.3. Some are higher, some are lower, but we'll stick with that number for ease of purpose. So we know 1 AP = 0.3 points of damage. Ergo, comparing BFT tick with AP ratio

1000 HP = 57 AP equiv
1500 HP = 87 AP equiv
2000 HP = 113 AP equiv
2500 HP = 143 AP equiv

Using a NLR as base, 1 AP = 20 gold. Ergo

1000 HP = 1140 gold equiv
1500 HP = 1,740 gold equiv
2000 HP = 2,260 gold equiv
2500 HP = 2,860 gold equiv

For the price of 700.

That's not including the +20 AP, +15% CDR, +50 HP

Or the extra two ticks it adds on at the end of the dot duration.

This item is especially good on those with low AP rates (i.e. Morgana has a 0.2 AP ratio on soil, compared to Rumble's 0.45 AP ratio on FS).

Nome, I really respect your posts and it's hard not to like you. But something this broken getting put in really is jaw dropping. I'm not sure what numbers you guys were looking at to justify the item.

AP do likely need a strong and strong gold efficient item. But BFT is way off the deep end. Even after the nerfs you talk about, it will still be so strong because of that passive. Either the combo price need to be raised from 700 to about 1500 (Bad imo, that's a lot of gold needed to be sat on) or the passive needs to be brought down (Dropping from 5% to 2.5% seems pretty decent at a rough glance, but more intense research would give a better number)


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ColdFireBeast

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?

What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players? What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%?? What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back? How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game? You focus on Blackfire Torch, but among the sea of real problems that Dominion has, that really should be barely a consideration. It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.
I don't think there's anything you can do at this point. The perception is that your own employers thought Dominion was a mistake and wanted it to die. The fact that any Dominion thread made in GD was almost instantly moved here didn't really help that perception. The time to have fixed Dominion and made it enjoyable for the masses was months ago. Possibly over a year now? I mean ****, Yorick, Urgot, and Kassadin have been unbearably unfun to play against for almost a solid year now. At this point, it's in the end stages of a vidya game life and I doubt there's anything you can do about it, especially when your community managers move Dominion threads out of GD or when people come into the Dominion forum and see that people are saying they've been asking for the fix to problems for a year now.

tl;dr too little, too late.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Nome, should we actually discuss these things, perhaps split them into a new thread, or it was mostly a rhetorical question?


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StormxWhisper

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Junior Member

11-17-2012

Hi mom!