@Lyte, what's your thoughts on Tribunal members like me?

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Tethin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmAJanitor View Post
Rather be sure of your judgement then making an incorrect one. That's probably how he thinks.
Thank you for responding. Yeah, that's pretty close to how I think. I don't really see any reason to give my opinion on my case if I myself don't strongly stand behind it.


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Tbird

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkSentry View Post
I think these "tough cases" are where your vote matters most. As someone who takes the time to read everything and judge fairly, you could be the saving grace for the person who was reported or the voice of reason if they need to change their behavior...
This is exactly how I approach it. Think about it, if you and other people like you skip the cases that are "tough" then who is left to vote on those? Someone is voting on those cases and probably being less thoughtful about it than you are. If you want to help you need to vote on them. I think a language barrier is about the only time a skip is needed. And like someone else on here said I know it is never spelled out explicitly but it seems like common sense to me that these cases are innocent until proven guilty. If you can find nothing wrong with the behavior then you owe it to that person to click pardon so they are not wrongly punished. As far as things like intentionally feeding goes it is just the nature of the beast that those are going to be harder to prove and you just have to use your best judgement on whether you feel it is a proven case of intentional feeding or not.


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Tethin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkSentry View Post
I think these "tough cases" are where your vote matters most. As someone who takes the time to read everything and judge fairly, you could be the saving grace for the person who was reported or the voice of reason if they need to change their behavior...
This may be exactly it. I am a philosophy major with a focus on ethics who is within a few days of finishing his degree. I am probably a good candidate to chime in with a punish or pardon response, even if I don't 100% stand behind it. But I'm still trying to determine that answer for myself. I feel this is a very smart response, but I'm still not 100% sure on it. Also, I'm still looking forward to hearing the opinion of a red on the matter.


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Tethin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysUsesAnivia View Post
People who click skip in any situation are incompetent.

The system is simple: if there is sufficient evidence that someone did something wrong you click Punish, otherwise you click Pardon. You do not assume guilt. If the case does not demonstrate wrongdoing then you should be hitting Pardon because (*GASP*) there's no proof of guilt.

Why is this concept so hard for morons to grasp?
Thank you for your response. I do strongly disagree with you on a few points here. First, I'd like to say that there are many excellent reasons to hit skip that would not show incompetence. Improficiency in a non-native language is not incompetence, and if you don't understand the language in a large portion of the case I feel that would be an excellent use of the skip function. If the function was not intended for use, I do not believe it would have been added.

As for the greater point of your argument I believe it only holds weight based on the assumption that the cases have an objective weight of guilt or innocence to them. For cases that are of this ilk, I have no problem selecting punish or pardon. But many cases fall into a highly subjective area where a person may be guilty by the very letter of the Summoner's Code, but not toxic about it. I am not saying I feel that your voting method is wrong, it's just not one that's for me, nor can I personally endorse it.

I do not believe that this concept is difficult for morons to grasp. The easiest way for someone to judge is to not deeply analyze the case. Refusal to engage in a false dichotomy is something a moron would have trouble grasping.


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Tethin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird View Post
This is exactly how I approach it. Think about it, if you and other people like you skip the cases that are "tough" then who is left to vote on those? Someone is voting on those cases and probably being less thoughtful about it than you are. If you want to help you need to vote on them. I think a language barrier is about the only time a skip is needed. And like someone else on here said I know it is never spelled out explicitly but it seems like common sense to me that these cases are innocent until proven guilty. If you can find nothing wrong with the behavior then you owe it to that person to click pardon so they are not wrongly punished. As far as things like intentionally feeding goes it is just the nature of the beast that those are going to be harder to prove and you just have to use your best judgement on whether you feel it is a proven case of intentional feeding or not.
I'll take this advice under strong consideration, because I feel it is good advice. As far as the innocent until proven guilty aspect of it, these are not cases where I cannot find guilt. These are cases where I struggle with the degree of guilt.

I do still struggle with the concept of voicing my opinion on a matter where I myself do not 100% stand behind my opinion. But posts like yours are helping me sort out if my current stance is right or wrong. Thank you very much for a thoughtful reply.


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BlazzedTroll

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

More people should be like you, then maybe less people would be on here complaining about having bans for incidents that are months apart, or bans over a case with 1 bad game and 4 flawless ones. Fact is... that is why the skip button is there. No one is always going to be able to tell the nature of a summoner and whether they are toxic or not by 1 case. Sometimes skip is the right option... and should probably reward IP if that is the most selected option on a case. Then people wouldn't have to feel bad punishing someone who may be right just to get IP or pardoning someone they think is alright and just had a bad game....


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Tbird

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tethin View Post
I'll take this advice under strong consideration, because I feel it is good advice. As far as the innocent until proven guilty aspect of it, these are not cases where I cannot find guilt. These are cases where I struggle with the degree of guilt.

I do still struggle with the concept of voicing my opinion on a matter where I myself do not 100% stand behind my opinion. But posts like yours are helping me sort out if my current stance is right or wrong. Thank you very much for a thoughtful reply.
You're welcome, and you are obviously a very thoughtful person judging by the responses you've given on this thread. You are exactly the type of person who needs to be making the tough calls that determine another person's fate. I'd rather know that someone who was thoughtfully considering my case punished me than someone that just saw a key word they didn't like.


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Zezune

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tethin View Post
I was wondering how you feel about Tribunal members which share a similar philosophy to how I pardon and punish.

I skip probably about 40% of the cases that come my way. This isn't due to laziness, or anything along those lines. I've been a member of the Tribunal since season one and always read every case unless something inexcusable occurs, and when those happen I don't spend the time to read the rest.

The reason I skip so many cases is that I don't like to select pardon or punish unless my heart is fully behind the decision. I find many cases where someone breaks the Summoner's Code, but the degree in which it is broken falls into a gray zone for me. In these cases I feel like it could be rightfully punished or rightfully pardoned.

I'm sure there are those of you who are going to say that I skip a lot of cases in an attempt to force my accuracy higher. I can see why you'd come to that conclusion. That's not the case. I simply don't like making a judgement that I'm not 100% sure I'm willing to stand behind.

Also, will this lead to my case load being reduced? I would hope not, because I put a lot of thought into my cases, but I guess I would understand if that was the case, since I skip so often.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts. I'm a big fan of the Tribunal and I love the effect the honor system has had since its been implemented.
You are a toxic member of the community according to tribunal logic, for letting people get off for minor offenses.


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Tethin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazzedTroll View Post
More people should be like you, then maybe less people would be on here complaining about having bans for incidents that are months apart, or bans over a case with 1 bad game and 4 flawless ones. Fact is... that is why the skip button is there. No one is always going to be able to tell the nature of a summoner and whether they are toxic or not by 1 case. Sometimes skip is the right option... and should probably reward IP if that is the most selected option on a case. Then people wouldn't have to feel bad punishing someone who may be right just to get IP or pardoning someone they think is alright and just had a bad game....
Thank you for your response, and thank you for your support. But there's something I do want to clarify within this post. I do strongly believe that if someone shows truly toxic behavior in one case out of four, that person does deserve to be punished. I am also in strong support of the fact that Tribunal no longer receives IP. I think getting rid of IP for Tribunal cases was a very smart idea. Sorry, I just don't want you to misunderstand my position.


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Tethin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zezune View Post
You are a toxic member of the community according to tribunal logic, for letting people get off for minor offenses.
Thank you for your response. I truly hope that it is not the case that I am a "toxic Tribunal member". I do not believe myself to be, but if a red clarifies that to me and in their opinion I am, I'll be more than happy to change my voting perspective. But as it stands I have a hard time considering my actions toxic, but of course I can always be shown to be wrong.


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