@Lyte, I'd enjoy the game more if your standards for behavior were relaxed a bit.

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tribunalconsp

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainedOne View Post
Excusing your lack of evidence of making this a case of "newer generation problems" (since we have no statistics on Tribunal Age compared to Punishment style), I get the feeling that people are expanding this issue to something it is not.

Like I said before, there is NO reason to get mad at this game. If someone is "getting in your face" then ignore them. You don't need to clash with them and ruin the game for the other 3 people on your team.

Yes, everyone loses their cool sometimes. I have lost my cool at this game. I admit I MIGHT have cursed at my teammates when I first started playing over a year and a half ago, but this game has actually taught me ways to deal with my frustration. I might yell out loud in my room about something happening in game, but I will never curse or yell at a teammate. There is no reason to. It doesn't help you or them do any better.

It takes so much effort to actually insult someone through LoL. This isn't Xbox Live where you can just yell, you actually have to think of something insulting to type, type it out, then hit enter. That is plenty of time to stop yourself (I know, because I have stopped myself before).

TL: DR No reason to insult a teammate. Ever.

There have been quite a few age polls in this game on all servers. The average tends to lie between 16 and 21 i.e. most people who play this game were born in the 90's.

10 years is a big difference. The state of being insulted is not something you can properly define. Some people are insulted by being called fat, others by being called gay and even some by .. nearly anything.

Of course you could prevent all of this by merely disallowing all criticism, or anything that could be possibly offensive in an effort to make this game as serious as a white collar day job.




It's not healthy, or reasonable to impose such harsh restrictions on a video game community. People have been trash talking since the inception of online gaming and I was there to see it.. and it was glorious.

Back when we had ignore, we used it... it just seems like people around your age can't take it for whatever reason.

Maybe that's what your generation needs, an online community bereft of anything offensive, like an elementary school class in session.

At the end of the day, you guys pay Riots bills, so it definitely is in their best interest to cater to you...

It's sad to see, but it seems like it's an inevitable part of all online communities that become huge nowadays.


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ChainedOne

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurecat View Post
I agree with this.

Do you think people who do insult a teammate deserve to be banned, in all cases?

(Underlying point: there is a difference between "behavior we disagree with" and "behavior we want to see punished/removed from the environment")
No, if insults vary than so to should their punishments.

I read over your case, and your "insults" were no where near what most people get in the tribunal. However, judging by your second 2 games (the first game was a fluke, you were reported by the enemy who only saw you say "Yep" and "Please report Mundo"), I can see why some people would have punished you.

That does not mean I would have. I probably would have pardoned you (and in this case it seems some did, as it was only Majority).

Unfortunately, this is about public opinion. That is the purpose of the tribunal. If more people actually cared and did Tribunal Cases perhaps we would all be happy with the results. As it is, there are not enough people doing the Tribunal regularly to get an ample depiction of what we consider right and wrong as community.

As for your question of punishment, warnings should be given out, that is their purpose: to warn. In your case, I think a warning was adequate and justified. The fact that you cared enough to post on the forums about it tells me that you are self aware enough to monitor your behavior from now on. In my eyes, the Tribunal did its job and you will most likely never end up there again.


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killd0zer

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Really over reporting isn't what makes me not enjoy the game.

It's the attitude that a lot of players had.

The biggest cases I can think of were:

The Shen that intentionally lost a 5v4 because he didn't think we deserved to win.
The team that blamed me for "single handedly losing the game"

I mean there were annoyances but those are what I remember, I never feel to worried that I'm going to get banned. And I'm no kind player. I've had over 900 ranked games last season, and I never got a warning. I've swore, I've raged a bit, I've even probably called someone out rudely, but I don't really fear a ban.

You have to understand it's hard to have sympathy with people who get banned for harassment based on the person bias of my own observation. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I just don't see it. Most of the tribunal cases I see with a guy who's just a little mean don't get punished.


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Mxie

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurecat View Post
No one is saying there aren't people who never get baited, never insult, never lose their tempers. I'm glad there are such people.

Do you think League of Legends is a game that only these kinds of people should be allowed to play?
No, but the vast majority of the time it isn't an issue. Getting consistently baited and insulting people is what warnings and the first few bans are for. As Riot has said (granted we don't have their proof), the vast majority of players will never see the tribunal. So winding up there is either a huge streak of bad luck, or an actual problem (an understandable one though it may be).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurecat View Post
I agree with this.

Do you think people who do insult a teammate deserve to be banned, in all cases?

(Underlying point: there is a difference between "behavior we disagree with" and "behavior we want to see punished and/or forcibly removed from the environment")
A few days ago I actually suggested adding a "warn" option to the tribunal for cases like this. Long story short, people said it was stupid because we shouldn't be the ones to judge the punishment. I still think it would be good idea.


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tribunalconsp

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by killd0zer View Post
Really over reporting isn't what makes me not enjoy the game.

It's the attitude that a lot of players had.

The biggest cases I can think of were:

The Shen that intentionally lost a 5v4 because he didn't think we deserved to win.
The team that blamed me for "single handedly losing the game"

I mean there were annoyances but those are what I remember, I never feel to worried that I'm going to get banned. And I'm no kind player. I've had over 900 ranked games last season, and I never got a warning. I've swore, I've raged a bit, I've even probably called someone out rudely, but I don't really fear a ban.

The difference between now and then is that people just talked **** back, threatened lives and .. probably intentionally fed. Now they just spam report instead.

It's just a different manifestation of anger with the same result, or .. perhaps worse.


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Futurecat

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainedOne View Post

Unfortunately, this is about public opinion. That is the purpose of the tribunal. If more people actually cared and did Tribunal Cases perhaps we would all be happy with the results. As it is, there are not enough people doing the Tribunal regularly to get an ample depiction of what we consider right and wrong as community.
I think this unfairly glosses over the role of Lyte and Riot staff in setting the tone for what constitutes fair reports, and fair punishments. We look to them for leadership. It isn't enough to say "well, this is what the community wants" because that community is a reflection of Riot's core values for player behavior.

I'm arguing for more sanity in those core values. I want Lyte to make a post saying "grow a pair and stop reporting people for stupid ****" (though maybe not in so many words ). I want Riot to implement a feature in tribunal where if you "punish" a case where there was obviously no wrongdoing, you lose your privileges as a tribunal judge. That kind of thing would go a LONG way to setting the community down a more sane path to self-policing than the witch hunt we have going on today.


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Alexandra Avdey

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrolImanship View Post
You realize you can get a near 50% report rate just by playing certain champions in ranked, right?
The thing with unconventional pickers is that virtually all of them are just jackasses looking for a "legal" way to get a rise out of teammates, at least almost all of the ones I have run into. Quite frankly, if you go with an unconventional pick, then taunt doubting teammates about how there is nothing they can do about it, then you are a troll. Trolls get voted into the Tribunal and banned. That part is working as intended.


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TrolImanship

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra Avdey View Post
The thing with unconventional pickers is that virtually all of them are just jackasses looking for a "legal" way to get a rise out of teammates, at least almost all of the ones I have run into. Quite frankly, if you go with an unconventional pick, then taunt doubting teammates about how there is nothing they can do about it, then you are a troll. Trolls get voted into the Tribunal and banned. That part is working as intended.
I mained Twitch before his rework because I liked him ;_;


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ChainedOne

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribunalconsp View Post
There have been quite a few age polls in this game on all servers. The average tends to lie between 16 and 21 i.e. most people who play this game were born in the 90's.
That tells us nothing aside from the average ages of people who use the forums.


Quote:
10 years is a big difference. The state of being insulted is not something you can properly define. Some people are insulted by being called fat, others by being called gay and even some by .. nearly anything.

Of course you could prevent all of this by merely disallowing all criticism, or anything that could be possibly offensive in an effort to make this game as serious as a white collar day job.
I completely agree with everything in this quote. 10 years is a large difference, and causes variance in culture. And ending all criticism will end most of these problems.

However, this is simply a case of Moral Relativism, and the problem with Moral Relativism is that everyone can be right.

If you believe that calling someone a X in not offensive, but I do, then we have a problem don't we? How do we determine who is in the right?

Well there are 2 ways to deal with this.

1. Assume we are both right, and calling someone X is both acceptable and unacceptable.

2. Take a "poll" of our community, and the majority decides whether it is acceptable.

Riot has clearly taken the second approach, and I think that is the right decision. Does it create some problems with the community? Yes, no solution is perfect. However, the first solution is paradoxical and solves absolutely nothing.

As I said previously, I admit that there is not ample representation in the Tribunal right now. If you disagree with the rulings then do your part! Join us in the Tribunal and weigh in on what you think is right or wrong. You can't complain about who won the Presidency if you didn't vote!


Quote:
It's not healthy, or reasonable to impose such harsh restrictions on a video game community.
I will not try to weigh in on this, because I am biased on this matter.

Quote:
People have been trash talking since the inception of online gaming and I was there to see it.. and it was glorious.

Back when we had ignore, we used it... it just seems like people around your age can't take it for whatever reason.
I believe your moral compass might be out of alignment if you would think trash talking is "glorious." The ignore button is a great feature, and luckily we still have it. But, as Riot stated, this is not an excuse to insult teammates.


Quote:
Maybe that's what your generation needs, an online community bereft of anything offensive, like an elementary school class in session.

At the end of the day, you guys pay Riots bills, so it definitely is in their best interest to cater to you...

It's sad to see, but it seems like it's an inevitable part of all online communities that become huge nowadays.
Assuming that I am not actually part of your own generation.

At the end of the day we ALL pay Riot's bills. Whether or not you buy RP, you help this game gain popularity by playing it.

As for the inevitable part... I would love to draw your attention to Xbox Live, a community full of 'my generation" who seems to have your attitude that insults are OK. I don't see it going the way of ... courtesy anytime soon.


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Futurecat

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainedOne View Post
As for the inevitable part... I would love to draw your attention to Xbox Live, a community full of 'my generation" who seems to have your attitude that insults are OK. I don't see it going the way of ... courtesy anytime soon.
I think there's a sweet spot in between "thought police" and "xbox live" for civility that we could collectively aim for, don't you?