Blackfire Broken

First Riot Post
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Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Let's look at the worst case scenario. According to LoLWiki, Sona has the least health in the game at level 18 at 1600. 5% of that is 80 damage. Most mages are lucky to have a 1.0 ratio on their spells. Thus, the passive is worth at least 80 AP when used on a single spell cast. So, it effectively grants 150AP for less than 3k gold, plus CDR, health, and magic pen. Oh, and it works with spells regardless of their AP scaling - even if they don't scale with AP at all. P Blade, Sheen, BFT, Trinity Force should be a nice build for taking out squishies on a bunch of bruisers.


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Orphane

Senior Member

11-13-2012

New meta: everyone builds BFT!


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-13-2012

@XenDryks giving mages the tools to deal with bruisers/assassins isn't' wrong, but BFT isn't the right way to do it.

"Unviable" and otherwise weak mages are still pretty weak. Blackfire Torch didn't help out things like Ziggs or Xerath much at all.

What it *DID* do was amplify the power of the already strong mages.
Stuff like Teemo, Brand, and Rumble who are already top-tier mages have only become even more powerful, overwhelmingly so in Teemos case.

BFT is a classic case of "rich get richer, poor get poorer".
(although in this case its just "poor don't get anything")


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Ekis the Seraph

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
Let's look at the worst case scenario. According to LoLWiki, Sona has the least health in the game at level 18 at 1600. 5% of that is 80 damage. Most mages are lucky to have a 1.0 ratio on their spells. Thus, the passive is worth at least 80 AP when used on a single spell cast. So, it effectively grants 150AP for less than 3k gold, plus CDR, health, and magic pen. Oh, and it works with spells regardless of their AP scaling - even if they don't scale with AP at all. P Blade, Sheen, BFT, Trinity Force should be a nice build for taking out squishies on a bunch of bruisers.
That's 1.) At level 18, 2.) Assuming said Sona comes into the game with 0 magic resist (impossible) and does not build any the entire game, and 3.) Assuming an AD champ built this, they'd effectively waste stats AND gold, since the only "bruiser" that would benefit from this entirely is Jax (or Poppy, if you must). And you'd be gimping Jax for stats that would obviously be worth more for a lot less (Brutalizer gives Jax more effective stats over the long run than BFT and costs less than half). And if you're building for damage and stats, well you might as well just save up 700 more gold, and buy a Hextech Gunblade for Jax and get your money's worth.

If measured, BFT is nothing but an overhyped Youmuu's Ghostblade. It, like Youmuu's, can be countered just the same.

Sorry but you must encompass all aspects of this math "algorithm" to make it work. Also, why would anyone build Trinity Force after this? If you wanted bang for your buck you'd build Lich Bane, at least the 70 AP could be added to something than just be left out there.

By the way: Force of Nature. Poops on BFT hard. If BFT does an effective 1.7 max damage per second, and FoN heals for 1.75...well there ya go


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Ekis the Seraph

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
@XenDryks giving mages the tools to deal with bruisers/assassins isn't' wrong, but BFT isn't the right way to do it.

"Unviable" and otherwise weak mages are still pretty weak. Blackfire Torch didn't help out things like Ziggs or Xerath much at all.

BFT is a classic case of "rich get richer, poor get poorer".
(although in this case its just "poor don't get anything")
I don't think it was meant to help them...personally weak mages such as Xerath or Ziggs would probably only benefit somehow if the Cooldown Cap was somehow alleviated to like 60% vs 40%...though Ziggs probably could benefit from this a lot since those bombs do proc things like Rylai's, no? I think they'll just remain weaker or niche regardless to what items are put in the game for them.

As for someone like Xerath or Vlad...they may need a specific item made for them...


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Warlord Buwberry

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

I think people need to rethink their math just a little bit. I'ts not the normal mages that are causing the problem. It's the mages with DoT's(Swain, Brand, Teemo, Singed, etc.) that are causing the problem. The DoT resets the 3 second duration for every tick effectively reseting BFT to 3 secs until the last tick. I single Teemo shroom does Shroom dmg + 10% of you max hp over the duration( not 5%.) In swains case since he has a 4 second dot in e can burn you for nearly 12% of your max hp with 1 spell + the spell itself.

Overall riot has given every mage brand's passive and made the DoT mages that were already strong, even stronger.

And in brands case your going to lose 8% +10%(BFT) of your max health for every brand spell + the initial brand dmg. You have to cut the DoT dmg in half or else DoT mages will be clearly superior in the crystal scar compared to every other mage.

I also play swain and i got to nearly 90k dmg on swain and that's a new record for me, since i build swain to 3.5k health and super tanky.

Beware the AP bruisers are coming if this isn't fixed, all the new mages you were trying to make viable, just got outclassed.

The Item is Balanced once you 1/2 the dmg of DoT's, because DoT's are doing 2x the dmg as intended.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Your case that BFT does not do significant damage just shows how bad off actual AP is right now, though, as it also runs into MR and health regen, which is why those aren't important to the comparison. As for why you would build Triforce instead of LichBane, Triforce does 1.5 x base AD and grants 30 bonus AD, compared to 70 + 80 = 150 AP of damage for LichBane, so you need 80 AD to break even. There isn't a single champ that doesn't wind up with that by level 18, plus you get a slow, crit, attack speed, health, and more movement speed. LichBane... is slightly cheaper, gives a little more mana, and a small amount of MR.


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A Slime Appears

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekis the Seraph View Post
That's 1.) At level 18, 2.) Assuming said Sona comes into the game with 0 magic resist (impossible) and does not build any the entire game, and 3.) Assuming an AD champ built this, they'd effectively waste stats AND gold, since the only "bruiser" that would benefit from this entirely is Jax (or Poppy, if you must). And you'd be gimping Jax for stats that would obviously be worth more for a lot less (Brutalizer gives Jax more effective stats over the long run than BFT and costs less than half). And if you're building for damage and stats, well you might as well just save up 700 more gold, and buy a Hextech Gunblade for Jax and get your money's worth.

If measured, BFT is nothing but an overhyped Youmuu's Ghostblade. It, like Youmuu's, can be countered just the same.

Sorry but you must encompass all aspects of this math "algorithm" to make it work. Also, why would anyone build Trinity Force after this? If you wanted bang for your buck you'd build Lich Bane, at least the 70 AP could be added to something than just be left out there.

By the way: Force of Nature. Poops on BFT hard. If BFT does an effective 1.7 max damage per second, and FoN heals for 1.75...well there ya go
Probably a bad idea to suggest an item that is being removed as a counter ; |


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Ekis the Seraph

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Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Slime Appears View Post
Probably a bad idea to suggest an item that is being removed as a counter ; |
Oh snaps they're removing FoN? This is new news to me...then I retract my last statement


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

11-13-2012

I've been thinking, what if we just replaced BFT's passive with the Sweeper *active*, and removed Sweeper from the game entirely?

In terms of actual *stats* given by the items, BFT and Hextech Sweeper are extremely similar.

However, BFT right now just completely overshadows the current iteration of Sweeper in pretty much every way, sans movespeed.
Plus, as Buwberry said, DoT users create extremely abusive situations with BFT's passive.