Blackfire Broken

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ekis the Seraph

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bierfaust View Post
So you want the game to be dominated by AP's now?

If this item remains as is, they will be heading back in time to when Burst AP's were the most powerful Champions. E.G. Annie with 3 kills is gg, or old old old school Vlad + Morde.

Granted that the game was more interesting back then, it was pretty annoying to be 3 shot every time you showed your face. Literally nothing you could do about it, especially when flash was nearly triple the range it is now.
I'm not sure you're talking about Blackfire Torch here. The item is strong, no doubt, but it's not THAT strong. Let's not exaggerate its strengths here. It's no pre-nerf DFG, and if you're getting 3 shotted by someone who has this item, either you're building glass or...well you're building glass.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by This Hurts You View Post
I don't claim to be a master balancer, but with that being the case I would think having the percent burn start weak but scale with AP would be a decent way to balance it.
I agree. As is, unlike something like Wooglet's, which makes getting more AP better, it actually makes further investment in AP comparatively worse, as a greater % of your damage comes from the passive instead of AP investment. I wouldn't be surprised if this wound up stronger on bruisers with AoE ability spam and some AP ratios, like, say, Hecarim, Shyvana, or Lee Sin, than actual AP casters. That's not even counting bruisers with ability spam and all AP ratios.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bierfaust

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekis the Seraph View Post
I'm not sure you're talking about Blackfire Torch here. The item is strong, no doubt, but it's not THAT strong. Let's not exaggerate its strengths here. It's no pre-nerf DFG, and if you're getting 3 shotted by someone who has this item, either you're building glass or...well you're building glass.
Well good job on completely missing what I said.

What I said was "a return to AP being the most powerful champ type" paraphrasing of corse.

Not exaggerate? it is blatantly OP, and doing far more damage to "tanks" than it is supposed to be. Granted it is making lesser used Champions viable, but it is also making currently strong ones, rediculous.

The 3 shot by an AP was referring to the days when Annies combo would out right kill anyone, with plenty of damage to spare, same with morde and vlad. (This was like 2.5 years ago, hence the "old-school" tag i used)

And as the other poster I replied to stated "the trinity force of casters"
That statement right there demonstrates why it needs to be changed.

Trinity Force is a bad item (for the game as a whole) It is almost the sole reason why tanky derps are running amok and why the powercreep for solo top has gotten so bad that Irelia has literally been nerfed for like 6 patches in a row (patches that affected her I mean) And almost every single champ released has had to contend with her being the pen ultimate tanky derp.

This is a very bad way to structure the game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Auryiel

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by urmamasllama View Post
honestly i think 15 stacks would be best that way. if you hit the whole enemy team with an aoe spell you're out of charges
And that's balanced? lmao way to make the item useless
Oh, well, you used it once in the fight!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ekis the Seraph

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by XenDryks View Post
And that's balanced? lmao way to make the item useless
Oh, well, you used it once in the fight!
At 15 stacks that means playing as a Soraka or effectively hitting all 5 champs at once, you would need to consecutively hit all of them once to run out of charges, not to mention the fact that after said 3 second cooldown they recharge 1 per second...come on some of you are really pushing extremes here. 15 charges is more than fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bierfaust View Post
Well good job on completely missing what I said.

What I said was "a return to AP being the most powerful champ type" paraphrasing of corse.

Not exaggerate? it is blatantly OP, and doing far more damage to "tanks" than it is supposed to be. Granted it is making lesser used Champions viable, but it is also making currently strong ones, rediculous.
*snip*
And as the other poster I replied to stated "the trinity force of casters"
That statement right there demonstrates why it needs to be changed.
*snip*
This is a very bad way to structure the game.

How is 5% of max health in magic damage necessarily OP? Its burn mechanic is specifically targeted towards beefier champs a.k.a. tanks, who until this patch AP champs had trouble taking down. You ever try taking down an Beefed up Alistar (no pun intended) even with Void Staff? Because I play mostly AP champs and trust me, tanks and bruisers would proverbally do a number 2 on APs.

Seriously, do the math:

In order for it to do 5% max health in damage, it means the enemy has to literally have no Magic Resist or the enemy team has built enough MPen and a Void Staff to negate what's built.

Assuming a 2k HP Champ takes a hit and gets burned, that added tick does 100 damage extra over 3 seconds. A 3k HP Champ (going into tank area, and by this point if the tank hasn't built magic resist then...then that's a bad tank) takes all of 150 Damage over 3 seconds. A Sheen does more damage per second than that and can be built early on.

It's strong, don't get me wrong. But people are blatantly stating "OP" and "It's like a triforce for casters" when they simply don't know how to counter build it. People are forgetting that this is Day 1 of the Zed Patch release. Stuff gets called OP, people learn how to counter build it, everybody moves on.

In most games where I've seen people call it "really strong", they have little to no magic resist built to counter it, or are using against enemies that don't build MRes or sustain to counter it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Purpleskoal

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

I'll bet a lot of money the torch gets nerfed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Auryiel

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekis the Seraph View Post
At 15 stacks that means playing as a Soraka or effectively hitting all 5 champs at once, you would need to consecutively hit all of them once to run out of charges, not to mention the fact that after said 3 second cooldown they recharge 1 per second...come on some of you are really pushing extremes here. 15 charges is more than fine.
If you hit 5 person, you lose 4 stacks per second, so you burn everybody ONCE! After that you'll burn for ONE TICK now and then. That's ****ing underpowered for you right there. With 25 stacks you have a little bit more time before the item basically has no passive. And anyone who claims its OP hasn't done the math, agreed. It's nice, but is nowhere near broken.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ekis the Seraph

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by XenDryks View Post
If you hit 5 person, you lose 3 stacks per second, so you burn everybody ONCE! After that you'll burn for ONE TICK now and then. That's ****ing underpowered for you right there. With 25 stacks you have a little bit more time before the item basically has no passive. And anyone who claims its OP hasn't done the math, agreed. It's nice, but is nowhere near broken.
Fixed that for ya and upvoted you.

It also fully recharges after you die. Now, assuming the enemy team has survived the onslaught of "HOLY ____ DAMAGE!", 15 charges is more than fine. We also have to take into account that we're actually hitting all 5 champs with AoE. That means it would only need one hit to do enough damage though. How many teamfights do you get into where there are 5 people up top or bottom? And in those fights how many times do you actually hit every last champ that's in that area, assuming you're playing an AP champ that does a lot of AoE damage off the bat.

Now imagine a team with mostly AoE...the horror. It wouldn't be underpowered; the item would still rock bot lane. Top Lane it would definitely be just as strong in terms of damage output, but tuned down in terms of how many times it can be applied.

But I digress...the only thing BFT actually does is make people have to build Magic Resist much like AD champs forces people to build armor in terms of priority. Now people won't be able to ignore the lowly mage sitting behind doing jack for damage.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lengone

Senior Member

11-13-2012

People are not realizing how little damage this is doing even if you build no MR. To restate some math: 3000 hp only seen on a late game tank in Dominion you do 3000*.05=wait for it 150 magic damage over 5 seconds this does not stack and does not include MR. Clearly the passive is not OP.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Auryiel

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

11-13-2012

Also, I believe people are calling the item OP because mages FINALLY have an answer to the stupidly powerful mid-game items bruisers can buy out of cheap components (brutalizer, sheen, phage, hexdrinker come to mind). FINALLY APs have an item they can look forward to while not holding back on insane amounts of gold (while you are saving 1600 gold for Needlessly Large Rod, that Hecarim bought himself a whole item). FINALLY APs might have a chance to stand up to the bruisers who have been dominating this game for too long.

As for the guy talking about Annie 3-shooting people : the item is not even that good on burst mages (the stats are nice, but the passive not so much) and your whole analogy is flawed, considering you are 1) Talking about SR, Realm of the Squishies vs Dominion, Land of the Bruisers and 2) As by your own admittance, you reference something that dates back to two years.

What's so wrong with APs having a place in the top tier? Taken from Sauron's Tier List (yes, I know, he says Torch is OP but the item has been out 1 day, if I were him I'd take more time to comment), there are 3 mages in the two highest tiers in bot lane and 3 in top lane for the 15 best champions in each lane in his opinion and that includes Kassadin, who is played as a f*cking tank and Diana and Evelynn, who are assassins, not really mages. And in bot lane, exlcuding Diana, you have Cassiopeia and Mordekaiser. That's IT. All the others are tanky dps or assassins who both prey on mages and you have a few disruptors built as tanks, who can downright ignore a LOT of mages thanks to high HP and high MR/defensive steroids. So now mages have a chance to respond to that and that's WRONG?