Tribunal Double Jeopardy?

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Arador

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Member

11-14-2012

(Please note that Riot encouraged me to take my issue to the forums; this is not me just griping and complaining!)

The issue is this: I was recently suspended by the tribunal, where the case contained a game that occurred prior to a previous suspension, almost three months old.

Since the prior suspension (three months ago), I have actively tried to prevent further tribunal action. I've even earned a number of honor badges. But yet, some of my (admittedly) toxic games from long, long ago are STILL being used against me?

This seems to fly in the face of the notion that I "have the tools to prevent [further suspension] from occurring in the future."

I've sent in a petition to Riot.
Riot's response to my ticket:

Quote:
"Please note that Tribunal Cases are judged as a whole.

I looked at the dates in question, and while one game is a little older, this does not excuse the other games in which you also showed toxic behavior. It takes a significant amount of reports to even end up in the Tribunal, therefore, no one is ever banned for just one game."
I have four issues with this.

1) It implies that just landing in the tribunal = guilty. But it is my understanding that guilt should be determined by tribunal judges, unless a player is SO toxic that a riot staff intervenes (which was not the case at all here).

2) seeing as I have games in the tribunal from before the prior suspension, it is likely that many reports are from that time period as well.

3) I was given no opportunity to see these alleged "other reports" in order to identify what I am doing wrong, and nor was the tribunal.

And, most significantly,
4) I have judged MANY cases in the tribunal, and I have found that, a significant amount of the time, a case hinges on one horrible, horrible game. If one game is really bad, but the other three were probably acceptable, I usually punish based on that very toxic game. In fact, sometimes I don't even read the rest of the case, because regardless of other games, the behavior in the first game ALONE warrants punishment.

Browsing the forum here, I find that many others judge likewise. So to say that "other games" were toxic is presumptuous - the entire CASE was deemed "toxic" and punishable, but that doesn't mean each individual game was.

It may very well be the case that I should have been suspended again - but the tribunal should have games that display my current game-behavior to make that decision, not stuff from a deep-dark past that I have already been punished for, and have been correcting.

My question to the forums: Do you think it is unreasonable to request to be judged on current behavior, and not on behavior that occurred prior to past suspensions?


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BlazzedTroll

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

I have had this problem as well. Not necessarily the "double jeopardy" you are talking about here, but problems with one game being the cause of a ban when it should be judged as a whole. I had one game where I was admittedly a really poor player and over reacted to another player on my team who refused to cooperate with me in lane. They player was harassing me and refusing to let me play my role, or play his role. This kind of thing happens all the time when you get stuck with a poor elo because a lot of people aren't there because they aren't good by nature, it's because they refuse to play the game how it is supposed to be played. When you get in a bad game as I did and over react (IN ONE GAME) you will get banned by tribunal, regardless of outstanding and promotional behavior in all other games. I had 4 matches that were in the tribunal and one was the match where I fed/yelled at the player refusing to cooperate, that was the only match that had any real basis for a ban and I was banned for it. While this other player probably gets by on just be a constant thorn in the side of this community.

I apologize for over reacting but this tribunal needs to look at how the ban players and decide if they are helping the community or just voting to try and get IP.

That is what I think the problem here is. People see this one reallly bad game and know that if they vote yes, all the others will think and do the same, when quite honestly most people probably don't think that should be the case. If they vote to pardon though, and don't get IP then they feel they made the wrong decision and will just vote punish the next time they see this kind of case. I only ever vote to punish if it is clear that a player has poor attitude and is always acting this way in matches. It is unreasonable to choose to ban a player for 3-5 days because of one 30 minute period of poor judgment.

I am sorry to you, in your case, where your 30 minute period was before you had a chance to change your attitude and I believe you that all the other cases in the tribunal showed no reason for ban.


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Alanja

Senior Member

11-14-2012

To clarify things:

IP is not given anymore and has not been give for quite some time now.

The tribunal does not know who they punish since the names are never shown. Also we do not know when or if the player was previously punished.
If we get handed a case where the date was before the last punish, we have no way to tell.

Edit:
Also we do not see how other people have voted until the case is closed.


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Arador

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11-14-2012

BlazzedTroll,

Thanks for the comment! I haven't really thought about the whole "one-case ruling" issue that you bring up here. In fact, it seems that I'm probably guilty of what you're complaining of!

My specific case, on the other hand, is OK with the "one-case ruling" thing (for now, that is, lol). I just don't want to be judged on games when I've already agreed I was in the wrong and have already been punished for. Those games shouldn't be placed next to new, different games when I've taken steps to correct my behavior. It makes the latter games look much worse than they are, as the reader already "has an idea" of my online personality that is both a) three months old, and b) has changed due to prior punishments!


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Arador

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11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanja View Post
The tribunal does not know who they punish since the names are never shown. Also we do not know when or if the player was previously punished.
If we get handed a case where the date was before the last punish, we have no way to tell.
I completely agree, and to further clarify my point, I am not disputing the tribunal or their findings in any way.

The tribunal found the case to be punishable, and I agree with that decision for that case. What I disagree with is that case should not have been there in the first place.

I am saying this is an error purely on Riot's part, because I had games slip into the system that had already been used to punish me.


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Arador

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11-14-2012

Doing a little tribunal watching, it seems that Lyte has actually posted on the exact issue that I'm having here:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...47083#30547083

Lyte's comments on page 4 are found as follows:

Quote:
The Tribunal technically only searches for games since your last ban, so if this actually happened it's a bug. Could you send me the dates of your Reform Cards that supposedly had overlapping games? I just checked your last 4 cards and I don't see any overlapping games.
It seems my case fits here. My apologies for the similar posting, and while some more posts here would be nice to get a Red's attention, I'm going to pursue this issue back on the support tickets!