Lack of AD caster items that can be in 5v5

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Acanthus

Senior Member

11-27-2012

I know this has been a big thing. I was looking for the thread that was from the devs asking for suggestions, but can't find it, so I'll just post my thoughts here.

Problem: AD casters don't have a sustain item they synergize with that doesn't do more on bruisers such as Garen, so we never see anything like Van Damm's Pillager in 5v5.

Proposal: Most ad casters rely on mana, and those that don't (like Zed or Renekton) still want ad, primarily, to fulfill their role. So the following is an attempt to create a niche item that doesn't benefit bruisers or would have an extreme early/mid game cost in terms of viability, as well as a late game cost in terms of defense if they were to plan to use it. So here's the idea in two parts (using planned season 3 items), an early game piece and a late game piece:

Witch's Scepter:
Costs: Vampiric Scepter (Long Sword [400g] + 400g) + Sapphire Crystal (400g) + 250g; Total Cost: 1450g
Stats:
+15 Attack Damage
+250 Mana
Unique Passive: 12% Spell Vamp

This is a low damage sustain item early/mid game that no bruiser in their right mind would invest in, as it offers slight ad, some mana, and spell vamp. Not all that useful even in the mid game. But this is supposed to be part of a larger recipe that would go toward a useful ad caster endgame item, which would be the following:

[Edit: Below this is the main idea, not the item above this. Jesus.]

The Heretic's Witchblade: (Why not be a little egotistical?)
Costs: Witch's Scepter (1550g) + Bilgewater Cutlass (Pickaxe [875g] + Vampiric Scepter [800g] + 275g) + 275g; Total Cost 3650g
Stats:
+75 Attack Damage
+350 Mana
+12% Lifesteal
Unique Passive: 15% Spell Vamp
Unique Active: UNIQUE Active: Drains target champion, dealing 50 physical damage plus 150% of your BONUS attack damage and healing you by the same amount. Additionally, you slow the target champion's movement speed by 30% for 2 seconds. - 60 second cooldown. (I would give this the same cooldown timer as Blade of The Ruined King, to prevent active stacking.)

This would fall under Mythical tier, if I'm not mistaken. The idea here is that this would would be your high end sustain item similar to Bloodthirster, only aimed at ad casters instead. I've done my best to minimize the usefulness it would give to bruisers by stripping it of cooldowns and tankiness, making it a pure attack damage and sustain item, primarily. The mana seemed something of a necessary sacrifice to justify spell vamp. I welcome any thoughts from anyone on the subject.

Edit: Tweaked the Lifesteal stat from 10% to 12%. Spell Vamp remains unchanged.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Just have patience until Season 3 is live. The AD casters have many more options.


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Acanthus

Senior Member

11-27-2012

But no ad spell vamp items.


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticSage View Post
But no ad spell vamp items.
Blade of the Ruined King, Ravenus Hydra, and Sword of the Divine are all better AD caster items than 10% spellvamp would be.

Blade of the Ruined King gives % HP damage that's actually physicaal, synergising with the abilities you have, and lifestealing FROM that % of the enemy HP. Oh, and it gives an extra targeted nuke that ccs the target to prevent it's escape.

Ravenous Hydra improves your farming ability, and includes an AoE nuke for up to 100% of your AD. Oh, and your lifesteal applies to every target you hit.

And Sword of the Divine is the closest thing they will give us to a -AS item. On an ADC, every point of crit chance they build is part of the active wasted, and the loss of AS after the burst becomes painful to sustain damage characters. But AD casters dont build crit, and dont care about the attack speed they're going to lose- having the ability to say "My next three autoattacks in my ability combo do double damage" (or more, if you got IE for the massive AD) significantly improves their burst.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticSage View Post
But no ad spell vamp items.
Why are people so damn obsessed with Spell Vamp for AD champions?

Seriously, it's not that good a stat. It used to be back when it was able to stack to overpowered levels, but ever since Riot fixed that it's just a basic sustain stat at best. Lifesteal works just as well on AD casters because the only AD caster that doesn't use attacks frequently enough to use Lifesteal is Urgot, who has long enough range and enough innate defense to not NEED Spell Vamp.


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Acanthus

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackalHalfdragon View Post
Blade of the Ruined King, Ravenus Hydra, and Sword of the Divine are all better AD caster items than 10% spellvamp would be.

Blade of the Ruined King gives % HP damage that's actually physicaal, synergising with the abilities you have, and lifestealing FROM that % of the enemy HP. Oh, and it gives an extra targeted nuke that ccs the target to prevent it's escape.

Ravenous Hydra improves your farming ability, and includes an AoE nuke for up to 100% of your AD. Oh, and your lifesteal applies to every target you hit.

And Sword of the Divine is the closest thing they will give us to a -AS item. On an ADC, every point of crit chance they build is part of the active wasted, and the loss of AS after the burst becomes painful to sustain damage characters. But AD casters dont build crit, and dont care about the attack speed they're going to lose- having the ability to say "My next three autoattacks in my ability combo do double damage" (or more, if you got IE for the massive AD) significantly improves their burst.
Blade of the ruined king is +40 ad +4% of their current hp. Not only is that the same scaling as madreds, which was fairly sad, but it is subject to diminishing returns. It IS good for the few self heals, but then I would find it somewhat lackluster. Also, it does help my abilities at ALL. AT ALL. 40 AD is small for almost 3000 gold. I would STILL sooner get a bloodthirster, for I could get it up to 100 ad, and I get to keep the lifesteal at 18% consistently.

In the case of Ravenous Hydra, not all ad casters are melee, though nearly all are. And having auto attacks hit for 100% damage in an AoE means nothing if the enemies don't group up, if I don't have attack speed, or if I'm not fighting in minions (in the case of needing life).

Sword of the Divine might be a nuke, but same thing. Why would I take something that offers no ad and only attack speed that costs 2200 gold? Maybe as a luxury item, but it would by no means be core. (Especially with trinity force being as powerful as ever and consistent without HAVING to land champion kills.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Why are people so damn obsessed with Spell Vamp for AD champions?

Seriously, it's not that good a stat. It used to be back when it was able to stack to overpowered levels, but ever since Riot fixed that it's just a basic sustain stat at best. Lifesteal works just as well on AD casters because the only AD caster that doesn't use attacks frequently enough to use Lifesteal is Urgot, who has long enough range and enough innate defense to not NEED Spell Vamp.
I look at spell vamp and lifesteal as damage mitigation. The more life you gain back, the more damage you can take, the more damage you can put out. It's the closest thing to defense that a pure offensive build gets unless you sacrifice some offense for defense as a bruiser does. Thus, I'd like a niche item that gives ad casters, specifically, access to a decent amount of life drain without having to auto-attack for it. I absolutely would in between skills, but during periods you can't auto attack, you can't mitigate more damage. And since ad casters usually don't benefit from crit as ad carries tend to, they steal less on average.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticSage View Post
I look at spell vamp and lifesteal as damage mitigation. The more life you gain back, the more damage you can take, the more damage you can put out. It's the closest thing to defense that a pure offensive build gets unless you sacrifice some offense for defense as a bruiser does. Thus, I'd like a niche item that gives ad casters, specifically, access to a decent amount of life drain without having to auto-attack for it. I absolutely would in between skills, but during periods you can't auto attack, you can't mitigate more damage. And since ad casters usually don't benefit from crit as ad carries tend to, they steal less on average.
Riven deals increased damage with auto attacks after casting spells, and it can apply Lifesteal.
Talon deals increased damage to slowed, stunned, etc. targets, has a slow in his kit, and has the ability to increase damage dealt to a specific target. He also has an auto attack reset.
Lee Sin gets increased attack speed between spells.
Renekton can auto attack 4 times in one second via W, and has innate spell vamp on his Q.
Jayce has an AA reset that maxes AS for the next few attacks and deals 130% damage (and actually scales multiplicatively with Crit).
Ezreal has hybrid scaling and an innate AS steroid.
Garen has innate %HP regen and the only %Armor/MR steroid in the game.
Graves has an 80% AS steroid and the ability to make it impossible to retaliate to him.
Hecarim has the only True vamp ability in the game, stealing 30% of any damage dealt by him (or any damage dealt within his W area)
Pantheon has free crits, amazing base damage and scaling, free AA blocks and a stun.

...tell me when I meet the AD casters who can't benefit from Lifesteal and don't have other benefits to make up for it.


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Chigokoku

Junior Member

11-27-2012

and as for Ad casters who need spell vamp, It would be nice when You are facing a ranged person anywhere!!!


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Acanthus

Senior Member

11-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Riven deals increased damage with auto attacks after casting spells, and it can apply Lifesteal.
Talon deals increased damage to slowed, stunned, etc. targets, has a slow in his kit, and has the ability to increase damage dealt to a specific target. He also has an auto attack reset.
Lee Sin gets increased attack speed between spells.
Renekton can auto attack 4 times in one second via W, and has innate spell vamp on his Q.
Jayce has an AA reset that maxes AS for the next few attacks and deals 130% damage (and actually scales multiplicatively with Crit).
Ezreal has hybrid scaling and an innate AS steroid.
Garen has innate %HP regen and the only %Armor/MR steroid in the game.
Graves has an 80% AS steroid and the ability to make it impossible to retaliate to him.
Hecarim has the only True vamp ability in the game, stealing 30% of any damage dealt by him (or any damage dealt within his W area)
Pantheon has free crits, amazing base damage and scaling, free AA blocks and a stun.

...tell me when I meet the AD casters who can't benefit from Lifesteal and don't have other benefits to make up for it.
You forgot that ezreal's q procs on-hits, and thus benefits from lifesteal, making it so he only truly benefits from spell vamp on w, e, and r. Lee Sin also has innate life steal and spell vamp on his w. Graves absolutely benefits from crits and lifesteal more than he ever could on spell vamp. Garen, Jayce, and Pantheon are generally built as bruisers, but could benefit from this with more offensive builds.

For the most part, yeah, a number of ad casters come with other benefits. But every character comes with unique benefits. This item would be intended for characters that cast as much as auto-attack, build offensively, but don't benefit from ap. A more offensive Garen would benefit, as would riven who would choose this over bloodthirster, urgot, zed, kha'zix (although he's not a caster, he does use his q extremely often), as would yorick (not that he needs it, and no, it wouldn't make him overpowered, as this item would offer near nothing for him early game). Why not allow these champions access to a possible tool to increase their versatility?


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-27-2012

My point was not that every champion is unique.

'Twas rather that on every AD caster, either Lifesteal is sufficient (Jayce, Lee, Riven, etc.) or that Spell Vamp is unnecessary because they already possess some alternate mitigation and/or innate sustain (Garen, Renekton, Hecarim, etc.). More importantly, all AD casters are either bruisers or assassins by end game; there is no AD caster that acts anything like a traditional mage, standing back and tossing spells from behind a carry. They either front-line and initiate combat, or they jump in after the initiation to kill priority targets and gtfo.


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