Zhonya's hourglass seems too strong for its cost

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ahy97

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

It does. Just based off the LoLwiki, it is already 110.6% gold efficient without the passive, and the passive can be gamechanging as it can bait out enemies into bad positions. However, the cost of this is just too damn low for its utility. It is almost a 2 second invincibility and it can almost flat-out win teamfights by baiting it against an assasin. The only other item that has this potential is guardian angel, and it is like 65% gold efficient. The cost of Zhonya's should be increased to like 4k because it not only has huge potential but it also is incredibly convienient for AP carries to rush this first against AD assasins with its gold efficient stats


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

its gold efficient just like everything else


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ahy97

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
its gold efficient just like everything else
It is but it also has a game changing passive which pretty much makes it too gold efficient. GA has a passive of similar power except you trade your own control over when you stasis for another life. But GA works similarly to Zhonyas with how it punishes assasins hard but is still useless when the owner gets caught. It also works well with strong assasins with AD assasins capable of diving, killing the carries and remain in GA stasis and stay alive as their team cleans up. AP assasins can also dive in, kill the carries, and zhonyas as their team catches up. Finally, GA's extra benefit of an extra life is compensated by its long cooldown while Zhonya's lack of extra life is compensated by its short cooldown. So these two items are pretty much balanced (maybe a slight bit more power for GA) except gold efficiency. The slight extra benefit from GA when taken in the context of a teamfight and overall game comes nowhere near in covering for the gold efficiency deficit it has compared to Zhonya's hourglass. If it weren't for the useless AP, I would actually buy Zhonyas as my last item on an AD carry if the enemy team has an assassin. Seriously, either Zhonya's needs a cost increase, GA needs a cost decrease, or someone tell me how this all balances out


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Erronius

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Gold efficient end game items speed up games, which is working as intended.

I think the main problem is a lack of enemy interaction with the active. Maybe not a problem, just a general feeling of frustration.

Just my two cents.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahy97 View Post
It is but it also has a game changing passive
just like every other item :P


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
I think the main problem is a lack of enemy interaction with the active. Maybe not a problem, just a general feeling of frustration.
this depends on how you define interaction. But yes, you can't really interact with it much and there are no options

They are untargetable and you can do nothing about it.

Whether or not this is "fun" is debatable. Whether or not its balanced is debatable as well but is a separate issue altogether


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67chrome

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Why did you post this in champion feedback? There's an item sections of the forums...

also

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahy97 View Post
It does. Just based off the LoLwiki, it is already 110.6% gold efficient without the passive, and the passive can be gamechanging as it can bait out enemies into bad positions.
What is this passive you speak of?


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Satellier

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Not to mention champs with DoT area skills (ex: kennen) or summons in their kit (heimer/zyra) can use it to just sit invincible while enemies keep taking damage.


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Cdwwg

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

The problem is that the item is too cost-efficient on some champions whereas it's a pointless buy on others.

The stats on the item are unnecessary when really all you're buying the item for is the active on very FEW champions like Fiddlesticks or Kennen because it synergizes with either their abilities or their ultimates.

The 50 armor just feels.. pointless when you consider what the actual item / active is. It's like they're trying to say "We want to give AP champs some defensive stats without sacrificing offensive stats" because items like the Abyssal Scepter are situational, but at the same time 50 armor REALLY isn't that game-changing whatsoever for an AP champion (unless it's someone like Vlad).

It's the active that makes you buy the item which really just means Riot may as well rework the item into something different involving the active on some utility-based item. Think of the Talisman of Ascension, but with a bit of offensive stats in place of the utility ones and the Hourglass passive instead of the Talisman one. That way it could be a viable option for supports, mid laners, junglers, etc etc without sacrificing damage and having a cheaper alternative which could be beneficial on everyone rather than just people who snowball hard enough to afford it currently. The active could be nerfed and given a lower cooldown in exchange for the immunity's duration being decreased. Instead of having this huge immunity duration that you just thoughtlessly use in the middle of your ultimate and profit from, it'll force you to strategically use the active to dodge particular abilities / combos that you don't want to be hit by whether it be in lane or in teamfights.

The tanky aspect of the item can be reworked into another item that'll allow more logical defensive options for AP champs which they lack a bit currently. Considering that they just removed the MR from the Twin Shadows item and buffed the AP, it seems they aren't fans of how items with wasted stats like that work, which is exactly what the Hourglass is like.

It's too strong of an item when used on certain champs, but is just barely cost efficient when used on every other champ.


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67chrome

Senior Member

4 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
The problem is that the item is too cost-efficient on some champions whereas it's a pointless buy on others.
All items are amazing on some champions and underwhelming on others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
The stats on the item are unnecessary when really all you're buying the item for is the active on very FEW champions like Fiddlesticks or Kennen because it synergizes with either their abilities or their ultimates.
Items are almost always grabbed because they synergize with abilities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
It's like they're trying to say "We want to give AP champs some defensive stats without sacrificing offensive stats"
It's mostly the AP burst equivalent of life steal from what I've seen, so I'm pretty sure that's what the intention is. Zhonya's gives a burst of survival for burst casters to survive with glass builds, life steal gives sustain for sustained damage champions to survive with glass builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
It's the active that makes you buy the item which really just means Riot may as well rework the item into something different involving the active on some utility-based item.
Utility on items mostly means "cool active", which Zhonya's already has.
If it's purpose is to allow glass-cannons some durability while largely being glass-cannons, I also fail to see the reason Riot would need to re-work it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
Think of the Talisman of Ascension, but with a bit of offensive stats in place of the utility ones and the Hourglass passive instead of the Talisman one. That way it could be a viable option for supports, mid laners, junglers, etc etc without sacrificing damage and having a cheaper alternative which could be beneficial on everyone rather than just people who snowball hard enough to afford it currently.
I'm not seeing how making Zhonya's globally applicable to everyone is a great idea.

I'm also not seeing how Talisman would make it more beneficial to a wider range of champions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
The active could be nerfed and given a lower cooldown in exchange for the immunity's duration being decreased. Instead of having this huge immunity duration that you just thoughtlessly use in the middle of your ultimate and profit from, it'll force you to strategically use the active to dodge particular abilities / combos that you don't want to be hit by whether it be in lane or in teamfights.
It's lengthy cooldown already forces it to be used wisely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
The tanky aspect of the item can be reworked into another item that'll allow more logical defensive options for AP champs which they lack a bit currently. Considering that they just removed the MR from the Twin Shadows item and buffed the AP, it seems they aren't fans of how items with wasted stats like that work, which is exactly what the Hourglass is like.
Hourglass doesn't offer wasted stats, it offers AP champions a solid chunk of durability in a way that helps burst casters - and it's especially potent against a wide range of assassins, the majority of which deal physical damage.

Considering Zhonya's Ring was a thing and Wogglet's Witchcap is a thing, It's a safe bet Riot has a pretty clear idea what Zhonya's should do and the niche it fills.

Also - If you're idea requires Riot to completely change defensive itemization and fill in the gaping holes with multiple new items, it's probably a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdwwg View Post
It's too strong of an item when used on certain champs, but is just barely cost efficient when used on every other champ.
I'm pretty sure by "certain champs" you mean "glass-cannons who's sole purpose is dealing AoE damage to multiple opponents by throwing themselves in the middle of all of them".