New player - too much grind

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Nidilen

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Hey Twistwrist

I never was trying to tell people what to do 0.0!

I am just letting you know that I think this thread topic should end, because its been stuffed with information, and its getting off topic fast.

~Nidilen


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chaser676

Senior Member

11-10-2012

You do know the moderators have disabled forum signatures for a reason, right? You aren't a special little flower.

Also, I see damein shadow is trolling more threads.


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a1sock

Senior Member

11-10-2012

There is a mode where you play against ai... no idea why its so frowned upon, if normal is too difficult you will just make bad habbits to overcompensate for weakness when you should be working on getting everything up to speed. A custom game with no opponents is probably the best way to practice farming skills like last hitting, freezing lane, pushing, last hitting under tower, and a little bit about minion aggro.

Intermediate bots just got a bit of love and its not this steamroll experience anymore. I have had some bot games that were more difficult than some normal blind picks...bots will now use their map to contest counter jungling or dragon/baron fight.

if you want to practice, custom and bots/coop are a great way to focus on individual skills. An amateur will practice until he gets it right, a professional will practice until he can't get it wrong.


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chaser676

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by a1sock View Post
There is a mode where you play against ai... no idea why its so frowned upon, if normal is too difficult you will just make bad habbits to overcompensate for weakness when you should be working on getting everything up to speed. A custom game with no opponents is probably the best way to practice farming skills like last hitting, freezing lane, pushing, last hitting under tower, and a little bit about minion aggro.

Intermediate bots just got a bit of love and its not this steamroll experience anymore. I have had some bot games that were more difficult than some normal blind picks...bots will now use their map to contest counter jungling or dragon/baron fight.

if you want to practice, custom and bots/coop are a great way to focus on individual skills. An amateur will practice until he gets it right, a professional will practice until he can't get it wrong.
bots are extremely frowned upon after your first few levels because it teaches terrible habits.


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FaceRoll13

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Had0ken View Post
...
The stat advantage of being level 30 is not as great as you think. If people are easily beating you and you think it's mainly because they have runes and masteries that you don't, you are probably wrong. (Except Flash. It is pretty ridiculous that you don't get Flash for so long, and it does give higher level players a substantial advantage. Other than that, not so much.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
The rune and mastery difference is barely any actual advantage.

You are losing because you lack experience and knowledge. Not levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidilen View Post
Hey VOoDOoQ
...

But also remember that its not all about the runes and masteries!

Happy Summoning!

~Nidilen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerfaust View Post
Runes and masteries don't actually make as big of a deal as you think. Yes they're noticeable early game, but that's most of it. The biggest hurdle imo is not having Flash until 12.

Reducing the time to get to 30 would make it more likely that you faced more experienced players, that's about it. You're losing 90% (number out of thin air, but it's really really high up there) as a result of player skill, not runes and masteries.

Don't take this as an insult or strike against you; nobody started out as a 'pro.' Look at it and realize how much there is to learn and experience with the game instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
I think literally zero people have said runes have no effect on game play...
People have jumped onto one small portion of the original post, and proceeded to trash the poster's skill level for it. No one has answered his question.

Let's go back to the original post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by VOoDOoQ View Post
There is way too much grind in this game for a new player. I want to play with friends to learn the game but I am forced into games with all 30s and constantly harassed.

Why are new players put at such a disadvantage with champs/runes/mastery when there is already such a steep learning curve


Why is it that new players are given less champions, runes and masteries than more skilled players.

For champions, we know that the answer is money. For runes and masteries the answer is less obvious. Is it to prevent everyone from creating dozens of smurf accounts? Or is there another reason, that the more experienced players than I may know.

Implied is also the question as to what the OP means by harrassed. Is it just being harrassed by opposing champions with better runes, masteries, and more experienced, and hopefully more skilled summoners? Or is it being verbally harrassed throughout the game for not having the proper build, moves and skill level?

My basic plan to try and alleviate some of the problems that the OP has faced is to play mostly bot games on my main account, getting to level 30.

At the same time I will start a second account to try and become successful at the PVP aspect from a low-level. Once, I'm decent at the low-level accout, I will PVP with my main account.

My assumption is based upon players being matched based upon level, rather than number of PVP games.


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Fs Son0fSilas

Senior Member

11-10-2012

^ match making is based upon elo


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Panzerfaust

Emissary of the League

11-10-2012

@Faceroll:

(Not quoting since you decided to quote a half dozen random quotes and then... anyway moving on)

I'm sorry you think that the question he asked is 'one small portion of his post,' but I found that to be the main concept. I realize I didn't touch on champions, but runes/masteries was the one that actually has a tiny bit of substance to it which I wanted to make sure didn't get blown out of proportion.

Now, to get break your 'Chinese overlords' bull**** argument...

When you start out at level 1, there are two options for runes/masteries. The first is what they did, where you start out with essentially none, and then work your way towards a full page. The other is where you start out with a set of 30 runes/masteries. This latter would actually make the issue more glaring, as currently you're playing against people with similar number of runes/masteries to start unless you're in an arranged team (more on that later) or have won enough that it's obvious you're more skilled than the average Joe at your level. To start out with a 'full build' you force players to go through and learn the ins and outs of mastery pages and runes or be faced with someone with a decent advantage over you. It also puts more of an emphasis on buying runes earlier instead of champions. (This is something that they would have probably done if they were all about the money.)

Now, as for champions... let me tell you this. Having 100 champions to choose from doesn't actually give you an advantage, in fact it actually hurts you, because the enemies also have 100 champions to choose from at any given moment, so you need to learn all 100 champs before you can even come close to playing a fun game. If you don't believe me, go play a game of DotA/DotA2 and try to figure out what the hell is going on by your 10th game. Heck, I played LoL before the store was out (so you could pick any of the 40 original champions), and it wasn't actually 'better' for players newer to the game; I wish they had the free roster when I was starting out. Currently you can take a quick look at 10 champions, maybe try a few of them out in a quick custom for a few minutes, and then get on with your games. Sure you might find yourself playing against a champion someone bought, but the majority of champions you face (or have on your team) will be free champions, or champions that were free recently. As you play, you get gradually introduced the more champions.

I'm not going to lie, yes they monetize champions, but that's the convenience of having a bunch of toys, not the power of having the 'right' tools. This is true for Blind Pick, but also for Draft as well. To be able to use a champion to a degree that you can consider it a 'tool' for you, whether in Draft or Blind, you need to play enough games to buy another champion. That's the short and sweet of it, because having a champion doesn't mean you'll have any idea what to do with them.

Are there issues with player harassment? Yes, but that has nothing to do with matchmaking, that's something that Riot is working on with things like the Tribunal and the Honor Initiative. You may not think they're working fast enough for your liking, but considering they're dealing with the genre with one of the worst historical playerbases, I think you need to give them some credit. There is still a lot of work to be done here, but much of this is reliant on the community itself; there is only so much Riot can do if the community doesn't want to put the effort in to become better.

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Playing with friends. To be placed with 'all 30s' you either need to be pretty close to 30 yourself and winning a lot, pretty close to 30 and playing with one or more friends, or playing with 3-4 friends. If you're playing with mostly/all friends, then they shouldn't be harassing you. If they are, then you need to either find some new friends or hold off on playing with them until you're better. If you're close to 30, then a few levels makes even less of a difference than a full page. If you're queueing with friends that are better than you, then you're going to be the weakest link in the chain, that's all there is to it. If you want to face players of your caliber while you have your pro (relatively) friends on your side, it isn't going to happen. Know going in that your friends are better than you, so while you will likely have a bit of a rough time, your friends should be having a breeze.

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On 'trashing' his skill. You need a kick in the shin for that. I'm going to be blunt, and not sugar coat this. Compared to the average 30, a new player (OP included) is going to suck. Compared to 1800 Elo players, 1200 Elo players suck. Compared to 2600 Elo players, 1800 Elo players suck... It doesn't say anything about your potential, character, or anything else. It's saying your skill level at this point in time relative to those that are better than you is, shocker, worse.

I wasn't able to achieve gold (1500) this season, though I didn't try too hard, but that doesn't mean I'm discouraged by any means. Hell, all it means is that if I want to actually get better at the game, I'm going to need to put more effort in. I'm in the same boat as the OP, I suck. And that doesn't bother me one bit. However I'm not trying to blame things like 'Elo Hell' (or 'runes and masteries'), because I know there is a hell of a lot of work that needs to be done on my part first. I make stupid mistakes, don't adjust to my teammates as well as I can, and 'lose my grove' too easily. Part of this is mental, part mechanical, but all of it is on my side of the monitor.

Wanted to cut this short before it got too long, but TL;DR: get off your high horse.


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Fs Son0fSilas

Senior Member

11-10-2012

^ Oh the days when I used to think my **** didn't stink and got to 1400 all on my own.

Then if found out it did and dropped to 899 while blaming everyone else.

Then I started eating my wheaties and clawed my way back up to 1300. My **** still stinks, but at least the movements are smoother and more regular.


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FaceRoll13

Senior Member

11-10-2012

@Panzerfaust

Thank you for finally starting to answer what I took as the op's original question in your second chunk of text.

I wish you had refrained from using the venacular howeveras I have; my children may at some time want to read some of these threads and you appear to be some sort of Emissary.

The majority of posters either emphasized the RUNES word in the question and that is why I quoted so many of them, including yourself. The rest went off the rails with a discussion if some poster was a troll. I'm glad that we returned to the subject in question.

Why it took 3 pages of posts is quite beyond me.

And no, I'm not on my high horse, I know that I don't play the game well.
I'm trying to learn from all sources including this one, in spite of the obscurification used by so many of the posters here.

May I assume that my ELO will be 0 whether I start PVP at level 1 or at level 30?
Or is regular ELO so unknown, that know one can tell?

I ask this because some references say that regular PVP matches are by level and KingSilas said that it is by ELO.


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Panzerfaust

Emissary of the League

11-10-2012

Normal Elo works almost identically to ranked Elo, so you can draw conclusions about general concepts from that. The main difference though, is that you cannot view your normal Elo. Ranked Elo starts at '1200' Elo. The number itself doesn't matter, the point is that you won't be 'negative' which has some poor connotations. Being at 1000 Elo is a lot different than '-200' if you started at 0.

Exact matchmaking algorithms and details are unknown, but while level does play a small part, Elo is more important. How ranked works: you're placed at 1200 Elo, and your first 10 matches are 'placement matches,' or matches in which you gain/lose more Elo than normal to get you to your 'true Elo' as quickly as possible.

As for my vernacular... I assume you mean my 'harsh language' rather than any jargon I might have used? I said 'bull****' once, 'suck' in a paragraph to emphasize a point, and 'hell' a few times. Considering this is a teen rated game (12-13+, and albeit not for language, online interactions are unrated by default), I find no problem with my using said language. While you may not approve, I don't swear just to swear. I may use harsher language than necessary in real life or on voice, heck even in chat, but I'm pretty careful about my usage on the forums. Could I have written the post without doing so? Yes, would it have had the same impact? It's hard to say, but I'm leaning no.

On a side note, as an Emissary, I'm a 'volunteer,' and not actually a Riot employee. That said, Riot does their best to not limit their own employees freedom on the forums, so while most of them by nature of being professionals limit their swearing, it does happen.

This isn't to say that children 'shouldn't play' the game, but to be honest I'd say most would be better off not, at least in the general sense. Playing Co-op vs AI or custom games with friends/family is one thing, putting an eight year old in with strangers is... less than ideal.


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