Item Preview Dust Sweeping

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Jace77

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

On the plus side, it now has Ignore Unit Collision on it though. How useful that passive is, I'm not sure - but it is something that people have been asking for quite a while on their carries.
so... one of thew best parts of fizz, Hecarim and ghost is going to be on a really good item core to all adc's? this sounds amazing for everyone.
50% of Hec's passive (one of my favorite ever)
says whelp there goes beating that Vayne now.(can't shake her)

If a carry wants to be able to ignore unit collision make ghost more viable over flash for this.
Unless the ignore unit collision is an active.
they.... maybe I'll be less annoyed.

I don't like having my favorite champs passive feel useless.
I don't even know why Xerath(another favorite) has his passive and now Hecarim's reads.... build all the move speed you want get 50 ad tops. until you get slowed.

I purchased Hecarim BECAUSE he ignored unit collision and I enjoyed jungling. now cashing adc's down will be even more frustrating because they cant be in a bad position due to minions.... it IS a nice nerf to support blitz though so... up-vote anyway I guess


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JezterWithAZ

Junior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHarz View Post
No, the new Hatchet item for junglers is confirmed to build into it, and Madred's Razors build into Wriggle's Lantern anyway.
Ok thanks


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Objection4Athene

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Support players want to have fun, too. I don't understand why constant direct and indirect nerfs are coming at supports so often. Some are certainly warranted, but nerfing survivability and gold gain is detrimental to balance and fun. Being a prime target for an easy gank isn't fun, nor is being gold-starved and unable to buy anything but wards and maybe an Aegis.

If HoG is going to be nerfed, supports have to have some form of easy-to-build survivability. Building, say, Kage's Pick in addition to Philosopher's Stone isn't all too bad, but the health on HoG was core to the support role. Otherwise, most supports simply don't have the staying-power that they will need.


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Dark Sentry

Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatshady912 View Post
Being honest here. That does not make sense.

MBR and DFG were made to give people a way to damage extremely high HP tanks were they not?

The problem with the items is that they are countered by MR which is primarily built by those same champions.

Changing it to true damage fixes this problem.

% health true damage does not counter everyone equally.

You are spending gold on the item in order to do % health true damage. That is gold you are not spending on stats that scale better which make you very strong vs squishies. It is a trade off, you are now more effective at killing tanks, but less effective per gold spent at killing squishies.

As an example lets say I could build a bonus 80 AD worth of items or a 3% of max health in true damage proc from new MBR for the same price.

On a 4000 hp 200 armor/MR Mundo I will be dealing an extra ~27 damage per hit with the +80 AD (up to ~40 with LW, and stacking exponentially with crit/lifesteal/and AS).

At the same time I could get this new MBR and be dealing an extra 120 damage a hit. (only scaling with attack speed).

This imo is a good item. It fills the niche those items were originally meant to fill. Now if you look at it vs a squishier target you can see that the 80AD is the better option when you consider its exponential scaling with crit/as/dmg, and it will scale much much better into the late game.

Now lets compare 80 AD vs 3% max health true dmg vs an AD carry with little to no defensive items.

Lets say Ashe has 2k HP and 100 armor.

New true damage MBR would do 60 true damage per hit (Once again scaling only with AS.)

the +80 AD would do an extra 40 damage after armor and ~54 damage after LW.

Now some people might read this and think "See? this % true damage is still better on squishies!" But that is wrong. It might do slightly more damage with no other items. But you throw in crit/lifesteal/attack speed, and this 54 damage greatly out classes 60 true damage vs a low defense/hp target.

TL/DR If you implement % max health true damage versions of DFG/MBR with the right numbers they can be balanced to be effective against tanks and sub-optimal for the cost against squishies.
how come this didn't get any attention?


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Icarus Dive

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Xyph, I hate you. I deeply hate you. You are teasing us with all these promises of awesome items without saying anything.

Don't you dare to walk alone on the street, because if I find you, I will point you with my finger VERY menacingly.


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Prussian Blue

Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I don't usually follow all of the TT stuff since I'm pretty heads down in making sure all of this works out in SR. I typically get tunnel vision when I'm working on something.
I just realized something. So I heard you mention that FON is going to be removed. Is Galio's passive going to be reworked in recognition that his passive is being limited with the reduction of MR item?


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Kemer0

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Junior Member

11-10-2012

i have a question:
as now the %penetration applies before flat pen, won't this change buff thornmail? cause it reflects % of damage recieved after defenses, so, not taking into account that just 1 or 2 items with armor pen will get thru the (100+other items+base stat) armor, the reflected damage will be larger, so cost/efficiency will raise quite a lot. Am i wrong?


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aliasedv

Junior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ploki122 View Post
Yeah... the best way to add gameplay is most probably to remove the counter to a new strong item...
You really want mid game jungling to just be ward sweeper?


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Zebaz

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Senior Member

11-10-2012

I have one request with all of these items changes... if you change an item so much that it no longer functions as the same item, can you please change the picture. When Stark's changed into Zeke's it took me forever to stop recognizing the item by the picture.


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Shadstalker

Junior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yeah, Phantom Dancer has had its' statistics extensively readjusted. It lost a *lot* of movement speed and a little bit of attack speed. It's also slightly cheaper and thus less slot-efficient.

It's been known for a while that Phantom Dancer was just too good but nerfing it would've caused a drastic effect on AD carry mobility / balance for a while. We've shifted some statistics around into other items that AD carries can easily fit into their builds and now PD doesn't have to be the king of both AS, Crit and MS.

On the plus side, it now has Ignore Unit Collision on it though. How useful that passive is, I'm not sure - but it is something that people have been asking for quite a while on their carries.



Not a dumb question at all. It's actually a tricky answer.

Ionic Spark is bad because it has a large set of conditions attached to it, some of which you can't control (whether you are doing well in the game or not, whether or not you can get 4 attacks in or not.)

However, if you fulfilled these conditions, the effect is worth the cost. Shen, for example, can force a situation where Ionic Spark is good for him... most of the time.

However, the problem in raw numerical buffs to an item is that it isn't the effect or the net result that is bad - it's that the conditionals are too harsh. For Ionic Spark specifically - Health is an odd conditional statistic that is great early game and terrible late game. The grouping and 4-hit conditional are really hard to resolve in most cases without the item simply tipping from conditionally good to always overpowered.

You also run into the problem where buffing an item so that more champions can use it well necessitates nerfs to the champion that uses it best. Let's say we buffed Ionic Spark so that everyone else can use it better. Where does this leave Shen, if he's balanced? Shen can buy other items and be good, so he's not completely reliant on Ionic Spark but he can use Ionic Spark awfully well (and in a balanced way.) However, raw buffing Ionic Spark in this context makes Shen a monster - which then necessitates Shen nerfs - which pretty much locks Shen to only buying Ionic Spark to stay relevant - which is kind of a terrible thing.

You do realize you prety much just hard nerfed fizz and hecraim with that action, right?