Item Preview Dust Sweeping

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

I Am Tolan

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulsong22 View Post
Can we get a new map that has you sitting in base and sending out the hextech chickens to fight

We can call it rooster wars.
Or chicken coup.chicken co-op? Chicken coop.
making a thread bout this


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DancingPigeon

Junior Member

11-10-2012

Hi Xyph,

I have one further question that I've been meaning to ask you for a while now. Do you feel that with the introduction of AD casters to the game that the definition of Ability Power and Attack Damage has lost a lot elegance? Currently, there is little correlation between Attack Damage being only for attacks, Ability Power being for abilities. Do you feel this change makes it more difficult for new players to understand the role of each?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS1f442d335a64271272cbd

Member

11-10-2012

WTF riot? there is no reason to delete MBR and ionic spark! of course MBR isnt doing as much dmg as IE+PD+LW because its a cheaper replacement!!! do i need to tell you about the items you designed? maybe you forgotten that not any champion want PD+IE+LW because than they wont be able to focus on other stats they do need... if i want to counter stacking hp tank like mundo or singed not as adc but as off-tank like irelia what should i do? I BUY MBR! dont you think its a better solution than having to buy IE and PD for NOT ad carry champions? its save items slots and gives you the stats you need to kill their front line without spending too much money on attack items.

now about ionic spark... im again AS based champion for example udyr and i want a faster jungle clear, i alreay have wits end and i want another cheap attack speed and defensive stat so i get ionic spark! the thing you call "noob trap" is a tool for champion who benefits from attack speed to stack them while getting some defensive stats.. wits end isnt alternative to ionic spark, the combination of them is what making ionic spark effective!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS19adfb83ca3237f8f8fa6

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFIceBrand View Post
@Xypherous Now that MBR is gone what should we get for attack speed LuLu now or any dps hybrid ranged champ?
Yes ... I liked Wits End/Ionic Spark/MBR on Teemo, AS + Armor + HP + MR, that was perfect.

Now if I want AS, I'm forced to buy Malady or Nashor's tooth, but they don't give survivability.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Queso Queen

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by G0tCaughtGG View Post
making a thread bout this
Haha new mini moba in moba inc


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amariithynar

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Thornmail offers pure armor and a very smooth build-up into that armor. Being able to go Cloth Armor into Chain Vest is a very powerful build-path that wastes no time in getting to that 100 armor. The major advantage of Thornmail has generally been the ability to get all the armor and to get it without needing to spend gold on any other statistic along the way.
@Xypherous, my maths might be a little off, as I'm calculating that the value given at any level as being base + 17 levels of adjustment, as I'm not entirely sure if adjustment is included in level 1, if there is an adjustment for level 1, or if as I've calced level 1 is as printed and adjustments are on level ups only. I hope you take the time to read this.

Thornmail costs 1000g for the recipe, 700g for a chain vest (45 armor) and 300g for a cloth armor (18 armor) for a total of 63 armor pre-recipe. This means that 1000g is paying for 36 armor and the passive. Using chain vest as a base, at 15.5 gold per armor point, that means it costs 558 gold for the armor, leaving the passive costing 442 gold.

Even using the values for cloth armor (16.66... gold/armor) that gives the armor a cost of 600 gold and the passive 400 gold. since it first calculates damage before your armor affects it, a 500 damage strike against 195.69 (rounded to 196) armor (Shen level 18 base with armor seals) results in about 33% damage taken, or 168.91 (round to 169) damage from the attack, reflecting 30% of 500 = 150.

Say it's a Vayne hitting for 500, once per second, and she's level 18 too- No crits, though, or that'll add more issues to the calculation (in her favour) than I'd care to input right now. She has a flat 30 MR, + MR/level glyphs for +24.3 MR, total 54.3 MR. This results in Vayne taking 97.21 (round to 97) damage from the proc. Assuming she has a stacked Thirster (and she should have one by now) she has 20% lifesteal, 20% of 168.91 = 33.782 (round to 34). 97 - 34 = 63 damage given from the Thornmail for 169 damage taken. About a 37% efficiency.

Now, for comparison, Frozen Heart. Total cost is 775g more than a Thornmail, which isn't that expensive all things considered, since it has a median build with Glacial Shroud that is 475g cheaper than thornmail. This provides 45 armor and 425 mana, so less defensive at just a Shroud, but also provides a much-needed 15% CDR, which can severely help scale ability usage and increase your TPS and DPS. Now, the mana is wasted on Shen, true, but a manatank wouldn't have the same issue.

Add another cloth armor and it goes from 45 armor to 63 armor, the same as Thornmail pre-recipe, and the cost is at 175g cheaper than Thornmail. Pure survivability lost to more mana to use for casting spells- which are often utility or defensive in nature, or aggressive such as in the case of Maokai. 475 mana and 15% cdr I think is worth 36 armor and 30% reflect, at that point, for a mana champ. 300 g later, they are over the cost of Thornmail by 125g, and have increased armor from 63 to 81. Only 18 less than that of Thornmail. the remaining 650g of the recipe accounts for 5% CDR, 18 armor (a 300g value), 25 mana, and most importantly, a 20% reduction in attack speed aura against the entire enemy team.

Against the above Vayne example, with a 1.0 speed attack, she is reduced to 0.8 attacks/second. over 10 seconds she makes 2 attacks less than against Thornmail. this reduction in damage taken means that she instead deals 1,351.28 damage instead of 1,689.1 damage, a reduction in damage of 337.82. This does lose out on the retaliation procs, which would return a total of 630 damage after MR.

Assuming the one wearing the Frozen Heart is Shen, and it is his only item, his Vorpal Blade goes from a CD of 4 seconds to 3.2 seconds. This means he gets three Vorpal Blades within the same timeframe as he would have gotten two with Thornmail- one at 3.2, one at 6.4, one at 9.6 seconds, compared to one at 4 and one at 8 seconds, respectively. Vorpal blade does 220 damage +0.6 AP and causes melee swings to restore 22 + 1.5% of his max health which is (assuming no other items or masteries or HP runes, so worst case) 28.095, total 50.095 (round 50) health per second from Vorpal's effect- This is the same regardless of thornmail or FH.

Since Shen has no AP, he deals 220 damage modified by Vayne's MR (54.3) for a total of 142.579 (round 143) damage per vorpal. Since he gets a bonus vorpal, he gets a bonus of 142.579 damage with vorpal over Thorn, reducing the damage bonus from 630 to 487. Feint's CD goes from 5 to 4 seconds, so isn't really affected in a 10 second window; Neither is Shadow Dash from 8 to 6.4 seconds (though this would give a third cast within a 20 second window).

With this all said, calculating the damage Vayne dealt reduced by FH into the damage bonus that Shen does with Vorpal against the value of the reflect of Thornmail, you get a bonus of 149.18 damage in favour of Thornmail in a 1v1 Shen vs. Vayne over 10 seconds; 292.18 if you ignore the extra Vorpal to showcase a straight autoattack fight. The moment you add a second champion though, or a champion not targetting Shen, FH's worth immediately jumps up because it is not selfish- it is shutting down the enemy regardless of whether or not he's the one being hit.

Reducing 500 damage hits incoming against an Ezreal from 1/second to 0.8/second means that he's saving Ez (84.19 armor, armor seals no additional armor) from taking 271.45 (round 271) damage hits twice in a 10 second timeframe- A total of 542.9 (round 543) damage reduced in his favour. So long as Shen isn't fighting solo, FH actually -helps him more than Thornmail does-. And the mana is a totally wasted stat for him currently, too. Not only that, but the longer the fight goes, the more FH's CDR helps Shen even more than the damage reflect, both in doing his own damage and in using his defensive abilities.

His ult goes from 160 to 128 seconds, cutting off 32 seconds, more than half a minute, off its timer. Over a 40 minute game, if you have FH at 20 minutes you can ult an entire -five- more times than if you'd taken Thornmail. Three more uses of Feint per minute, giving 750 more shield a minute, or a whopping -15,000- extra shield over the course of the remaining 20 minutes (if used on CD, not likely to be quite as effective, this is just best case, I do acknowledge) Shadow Dash 7.5 times every minute normally, 9.375 times every minute with FH. That's 37.5 times more total that you can shadow dash- much better for placement, and a 1.6 second CD reduction means that it's much more relevant during teamfights as well.

In short, Thornmail is a noob trap of the worst sort. Note that a solo Shen taking FH at the end of those 10 seconds is still alive at 521.72 health, allowing him to continue living for 4 seconds more due to the reduced attack rate. A Shen with Thornmail would be at 183.9 HP, alive for only a single second longer. 14 seconds alive compared to 11 (before Vorpal HP gain allowances extend it further), able to dish out more damage and abilities, and able to defend against more damage? I'll take the FH on Shen, or in fact anyone, be they mana champ or otherwise, before I take a Thornmail.

TL;DR: Thornmail sucks unless all you do is 1v1, here's the maths, Frozen Heart is better on even Shen than Thornmail simply by stats, even with wasted mana.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Acastius

Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Just going to leave this here.. sneakily.. :3

Sightstone (650 Gold)
+125 Health
Unique Passive - Refresh (Ward) : Starts with 4 charges and refills each time you stop by your shop.
Unique Active - Ghost Ward: Consumes a charge to place an invisible ward that reveals the surrounding area for 3 minutes. You may have a maximum of 2 wards from this item at once.

Upgrades to...

*is dragged away by internal Riot teams*
Spent the last while trying to catch up on this conversation, not sure how you're so on top of it!

First, thanks for this item! As a primary support player it's amazing! I'm somewhat worried though, because as a support I tend to run around refilling a stack of 5 wards - and I still get complaints about not warding nearly enough. I'm worried I'll get told to buy this, and then to keep a spot open for extra wards as well. That's my only concern.

Also, when it comes to Ionic Spark and finding a new home for the chain lightning - my first thought was a "on critical hit" item. Maybe even an item that keeps track of your total critical hits and becomes more effective with use. (ala the new Arch Angels) So it wouldn't start with lightning, but after X number of crits you'd get it. (I have no idea if that's balanced or not. Just a first thought.

Thanks man, your work is much appreciated!

OH! Almost forgot! An anecdote and a question from it: When I first started the game, I thought that melee characters had to buy melee weapons, and ranged characters bought weapons that were ranged. I even thought guns and bows were different. (Magic was less confusing for some reason) I was blown away when someone explained to me that I should be building a sword on a character with a gun, and that Graves shouldn't build a hextech revolver... even though it looks like his gun.

Any chance you'd introduce items that are only available for characters based on how they attack? It makes the items more niche for sure, but it'd also allows you to target what those characters need without every player thinking it might be for them. And it'd allow you to drop in some items to help Melee carries out without having to balance them for Ranged ones.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BFIceBrand

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ploki122 View Post
A decent AS item like wits end, malady, Nashor's tooth (since you're more after AS than on-hit) Statikk's shiv, maybe tiamat depending on the buff
EDIT : Oh and BoRK, physical or not, it still works on on-hits.

EDIT2: @Xpecial... is that a cam? or a gun? or a guncorder?
A champ like Hybrid lulu does not meet her potential as a bruiser with items like what you stated and should not be build on hybrid dullest lulu since they offer no protection vs damage output...Mabey one out of them in a build would work well but stacking them would only be a burden to your team mid late game..

This is the unstoppable build for LuLu atm..... Berserker,MBR,TF,FM,BT,GA...... She is usually legendary at TF..

With that full build no Adc can beat LuLu 1vs1 and this is a know fact b4 Hybrid luLu players. I once soloed a good jax player with more than half my health remaining. The thing is MBR is the key to this build and others like it,,,

It gives great farming , defense , offense , attack speed


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rograden

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Xypherous with the new warding stone, what's going to be the effect on Pink wards and Oracles? Sure you have to B to recharge stacks to 4, and you can only have a max two out, but doesn't the effectiveness of HP + 4 wards out power the efficiency of pink wards and... well maybe no oracles.. depends if you die a lot...

anyway, you just wait out the 3 min, and bam you put up a new ward there, and most times you'll just move your wards up river to counter the pink so it's out of vision... just seems like pink wards will be more of a sink hole than an advantage.. please explain to me how it won't.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS1919c0afb0e5a67513f39

Member

11-10-2012

@Xypherous Are you planning on making any changes to the Bloodthirster and Phantom dancer? I feel like they are so extremely dominant for most of the AD champions.