Black Gauntlet, Melee Carry item idea

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The Blue Jelly

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmenar View Post
You guys give the passive a little TOO much credit. It's definitely not strong enough to purchase on a champ like Katarina who literally only benefits from the AD, passive, and tenacity.

Also - With a 2 minute cooldown, and a 3 secondd uptime on the buff, you guys are definitely overestimating the overall survivability increase on the passive. Poppy's passive reduces all incoming damage over 10% of her health by 50% constantly, making her very hard to burst down, however poppy is more of a caster than an autoattacker. As where this item provides you additional damage reduction, it only has a 3 second uptime. 10x EHP is a MAJOR overestimation of the passive. It's limited uptime is why I didn't include the clause "Does not reduce damage from structures."

Also @The Blue Jelly - Did you play in season 1 at all? Just wondering. Back then, when MADC's were not only viable, but as junglers or solotops were a force to be feared. The biggest thing that changed was the re-structuring of the jungle, making it harder to farm just jungling and encouraging junglers to build gp10 items, and the introduction of a good many new Fighter/Brawler champions with better-than-good early game damage and sustain (We're looking at Rengar here)
We aren't overestimating that passive. That passive is an instantaneous 10x to your health for 3 seconds. Most teamfights last what, 15 seconds tops? For a fifth of that time you're basically invulnerable if you have any sustain at all.
If anything, you're *underestimating* the passive.

And 10x EHP is NOT an overestimation. it blocks 90% of damage, so it allows 10%.
Fomula: Damage*allowed = HP <=> Damage = HP / Allowed = EHP
Guess what 0.1^(-1) is. Yep. 10. That's a 10x to your EHP for 3 seconds.


Really? You're questioning how long I've been here?
Son, I was around back when Evelynn jungled Revive/Smite and could (if she wished) wear boots of mob and stack Capes of Suns.
I was around when TF was viable AD.
I was around when Innervating Locket was the best item ever on Udyr, Gragas, and later Sona (so much to the point with Sona that they had to straight up remove the thing).

I joined between Galio and Urgot's release.

Yi has never been truly scarry; he's a pubstomper through and through.
And Tryndamere was legitimately OP at one point, though the community's view of him diminished slower than he himself did, resulting in his current UP incarnation.

Oh, and jungle? Ha. You know who jungled? Warwick and Fiddle, with the occasional Nunu/Ramu/Eve/Yi. You know how they jungled? Sheer force of will because back then the Jungle was fking scary.

And no. MADCs weren't viable back then either. 5 man focus has always been their bane. The only difference is back then our tanks were more legit tanks and could potentially lock down a team long enough for the MADC to kill people.

But then, this *was* back in the day when the RADC went mid, Mejai's was actually common on mages, and Rabadon was still married to Zhonya (and their wedding band was the AP item of choice).

Seriously, actual team-based strategy has evolved into being very solid, and that 5 man focus which was more just likely back then is a straight guarantee now.


Just some advice. Use that thing behind your eyes before you speak.


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Naokazu

Senior Member

11-09-2012

In DoTA this would be balanced.

In LoL this would be absurdly overpowered.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmenar View Post
Notice the lack of life steal, movement speed, and a persistant survivability increase? It's got an anti-burst cooldown but no health, no resists. What I do think is that maybe 50 AD is too much, and it should be lowered to 40 to bring it in line with the two AD items used to build it.
Fair points, so it isn't ALL of the stats an AD wants. But what I was trying to point out is that it has stats which give more power to Bruisers and Assassins as well as MADCs. That's not even to mention how it would help RADCs. That anti-burst passive is no joke. What you have to remember is that those champion types are already viable and balanced, with the exception of bruisers IMO, as those are a little too dominant if anything. MADCs need to be brought into line with those other categories, but if you add things that buff all ADs, then you are essentially only increasing the disparity between ADs and APs, not actually improving MADCs themselves.


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Jelly View Post
Just some advice. Use that thing behind your eyes before you speak.
See I wanted to take your arguments seriously, but it appears you're not wanting to stick to reasoned discussion. Not even going to bother responding to you anymore.

@TheLastBaron88, RADC's would want higher DPS items overall. Since this item now has the same AD as a last whisper, yet no armor penetration, the 20% Attack Speed and Crit are not enough to bring it up to even the same total DPS Increase as Last Whisper would be on a target with no armor items. RADC's can maintain distance, and this doesn't provide near the same survivability as a GA, Veil, or QSS would... I really do think a majority of RADC players would stick to the current meta (assuming item changes don't encourage a new playstyle)


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The Blue Jelly

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmenar View Post
See I wanted to take your arguments seriously, but it appears you're not wanting to stick to reasoned discussion. Not even going to bother responding to you anymore.
Says the pot to the kettle.
You're the one that decided my views were because I was new here. Not my fault that plan backfired the way it did.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmenar View Post
See I wanted to take your arguments seriously, but it appears you're not wanting to stick to reasoned discussion. Not even going to bother responding to you anymore.

@TheLastBaron88, RADC's would want higher DPS items overall. Since this item now has the same AD as a last whisper, yet no armor penetration, the 20% Attack Speed and Crit are not enough to bring it up to even the same total DPS Increase as Last Whisper would be on a target with no armor items. RADC's can maintain distance, and this doesn't provide near the same survivability as a GA, Veil, or QSS would... I really do think a majority of RADC players would stick to the current meta (assuming item changes don't encourage a new playstyle)
The passive, with the numbers you have provided, basically makes the user burst-proof. With GA, you have a few seconds wherein the resurrecting carry can't put damage on you, but with this, they are essentially invulnerable WHILE being able to lifesteal through your damage, giving them much more presence in a teamfight while also giving them AD stats, which GA does not. I would absolutely put this on an RADC instead of a GA. Thereby keeping the rest of my build, including the aforementioned Last Whisper.


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
The passive, with the numbers you have provided, basically makes the user burst-proof. With GA, you have a few seconds wherein the resurrecting carry can't put damage on you, but with this, they are essentially invulnerable WHILE being able to lifesteal through your damage, giving them much more presence in a teamfight while also giving them AD stats, which GA does not. I would absolutely put this on an RADC instead of a GA. Thereby keeping the rest of my build, including the aforementioned Last Whisper.
This item has a 3 second uptime and 2 minute cooldown, no resists. GA has hybrid resists and brings you literally back from the dead. I don't see how the two are even comparable.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmenar View Post
This item has a 3 second uptime and 2 minute cooldown, no resists. GA has hybrid resists and brings you literally back from the dead. I don't see how the two are even comparable.
90% damage resistance, or a long revival animation that leaves you at 1/3 HP in most cases?

Ability to literally take every enemy's entire kit of focus and survive, or die twice because their skills cool down during your revival animation?

Offense item with ungodly defense steroid, or pure defense item?


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmenar View Post
This item has a 3 second uptime and 2 minute cooldown, no resists. GA has hybrid resists and brings you literally back from the dead. I don't see how the two are even comparable.
What's not to get? I mean, I can do the math and post the numbers on this if you think it'll help, but I mean the basic point is you are giving an outrageous amount of survivability on the same item that is giving solid AD stats, thus negating the need for an AD to build a purely defensive item, which is an essential part of League's game balance.


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Sgt Squiggles

Junior Member

11-10-2012

To me (I'm looking at the stats currently) it seems very weak for 3150 gold
the 50 ad you had before seemed nice, the cooldown seems ok but the atk speed is a bit slow. So maybe 25%?
It looks nice other than that though.

Those are my thoughts so, criticizing is to be expected.


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