Black Gauntlet, Melee Carry item idea

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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Well, since this was posted on page 181 of a thread and will therefore likely never be seen, I present the following item idea to you, the community, for discussion.

Note: I am not 100% satisfied with the overall stats of the item - Points for discussion might be, some viable stats to replace the AD with, that wouldn't make the item something that would add to the already prevalent problem of "tanky bruisers" yet are still valuable to a melee carry.

Problem: The availability of heavy burst, as well as the proliferation of CC currently in the game, has made AD carries "less than" viable. To counteract this CC, they have to sacrifice overall DPS for a quicksilver sash, and sacrifice a summoner spell for cleanse. This still doesn't quite do enough to correct the issue. In addition, Cloak and Dagger does not currently have an item that it can build up into. As an answer, I present the following item. (This is based off of an artifact that the character Artemis Entreri, an Assassin character created by the author R.A. Salvatore, has used in several novels)

Item: Black Gauntlet
Legendary
20% Attack Speed
20% Critical Chance
40 AD
35 Tenacity
UNIQUE Passive: If you would suffer damage greater than 10% of your maximum health, reduce all damage taken by 90% for 3 seconds. (120 second cooldown)

Gold Cost: 3150

Recipe: (310g combine cost)
Cloak and Dagger - 1450g
Pickaxe - 975g
Longsword - 415g

With stats like Attack Speed, AD, and Crit Chance, this item will look attractive to any AD carry who is worried that they might get focused. Tenacity as a stat already exists in the game, however most items that have it lack a certain amount of luster that a carry might want to see. With the cooldown on it's passive being 120 seconds, this item will only protect you one time per team fight. With an uptime of 3 seconds, this will likely only protect you from one single wave of incoming burst as well.

Since it lacks the survivability and rebirth passive of Guardian's Angel, lacks the cleansing active of Quicksilver Sash, and the bonus health and mana of Banshee's Veil, I predict that a majority of Ranged AD carries would prefer to take a higher DPS item instead, since they can maintain a safe distance from their enemies. However, Melee carries such as Fiora, Gangplank, Master Yi, Shaco, Sion, and Tryndamere can benefit from all of the stats present on this item. At the same time, this one item does not possess every stat that said characters might want, as it lacks movement speed and lifesteal.

A problem I can see with this item is that it might potentially favor bruisers. However, with the presence of stats like attack speed and critical chance, the 120 second cooldown of the passive, and the lack of a consistent, reliable increase in survivability, I feel that many bruisers would favor other items, especially considering the item's expense.

Edit: Adjusted cooldown from 90 seconds to 120 seconds.
Edit: Adjusted AD from 50 to 40


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Meserion

Senior Member

11-09-2012

just so you know most melee carrys or solo tops right now are very broken; this would only make it worse.


if you removd the tenacity or AD it may be a bit more balanced


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-09-2012

While a melee carry might be able to win a lane, they cannot team fight at all. Once again, original problem. I am talking about a real melee carry, not a fighter or a bruiser but a carry, someone with a significant autoattack steroid.

Also - since the item costs 3150 gold, I feel that if the Tenacity or AD were just removed and not replaced with something else, the item would not be worth purchasing.

Final edit - Ranked and draft differ from blind in the fact that unless you are last pick and see that the enemy team lacks any hard CC (fat chance), enemy teams will see a melee carry and either 1) run a ranged in their lane to counterpick them or 2) run multiple CC's on the team to make them ineffective. The melee carry is then forced to build as more of a tanky fighter, something that many of their kits are sub-optimal for compared to champions like wukong or riven.


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Nekroz

Member

11-09-2012

How dare you poppy deos not approve taking her passive and putting it on a item


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Pitufito Dell

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Senior Member

11-09-2012

10% hp is... well... 200 on most ADCs. There are 2 problems: Turrets could easely pop it out as well as supports, and an ADC whit this will be stupidly OP, because it grant more defense that they deserve in an attack item.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Hahaha, I actually saw and read through that Necroed post for like 20 mins before realizing it was a year old, lmfao. Thanks for that. It was an interesting read though. I am actually running a thread on the subject of MADCs, over here http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2742344 . Was hoping you might leave your suggestion there as well, in addition to weighing in on the thread?

As for your item, it seems to offer literally every stat a Physical Damage dealer could want, except for Armor Pen. The key issue with MADCs seems to be not just improving their viability, but doing so in a way that doesn't help the already dominant bruisers, not to mention giving a reason to choose Melee over Ranged Carries. Losing the AD might be one way to do that, or lessening it at least. The passive is an interesting idea, I think. It does solve the issue of being bursted immediately, as well as giving tenacity on an item other than Merc Treads that is actually worth getting, freeing up that slot for Berserker's Greaves.


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The Blue Jelly

Senior Member

11-09-2012

When will people learn...

Here's two explanations as to why MADCs are not viable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Jelly View Post
3) The problem with MADCs has nothing to do with what you think it does.
It's paradigm.

In a teamfight, the hardest part of killing the ADC is getting your damage onto the ADC.

MADCs go into melee range. You can't peel for a MADC, and thus, they solve the hardest part of killing them for you.


Glass Cannon MADC is never going to be viable in an even match. And that has nothing to do with itemization (unless you're thinking high damage high defense, in which case your thought is 99% OP because RADCs could buy it too and be even better with it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Melee carries are not viable because the team cannot protect them:
  • A champion cannot inflict much damage while he/she is dead (although there are ways to inflict "some" extra damage while dead).
  • By nature, a melee champion is either in the thick of the fighting or doing nothing.
  • A champion in the thick of a fight is very vulnerable to damage.
  • Damage output always comes down to consistent or inconsistent DAMAGE PER SECOND, which implies that the champion must survive for a majority of a fight.
The factors suggest that a viable "melee carry" is literally impossible amongst competent players unless that melee champion has a ridiculous kit compared to everything else. In the "ridiculous kit" case, the champion continues to perform better as a bruiser, and he/she would be undeniably overpowered when built as a bruiser.
Therefore, viable melee carries cannot exist in this game. This does not mean that champions like Master Yi will always be inherently unviable. Those champions merely need to build enough defense to keep fighting in the fray, and net their team and overall advantage in group fights. Many players figured out "bruiser Nocturne" a long time ago already, and he is not much different from Yi, Fiora, or Tryndamere.

By default, all melee champions are bruisers when played competently. Melee champions provide their optimal outputs with bruiser variations.

In addition to your semi-misunderstanding of the inviability of the GCMADC, your item provides a 10x EHP at the drop of a hat. ANYONE who can benefit from AD will buy this item. You'll even see it on Katarina- and likely Kass and Ori as well.

You ever hear about Poppy's Passive? Poppy's Passive is the definition of overpowered passive (but is balanced by how she works). Do you know what it does? I reckon you don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy's Passive
Any damage dealt to Poppy that exceeds 10% of her current health is reduced by 50%. This does not reduce damage from structures.
Notice the similarities?


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-09-2012

You guys give the passive a little TOO much credit. It's definitely not strong enough to purchase on a champ like Katarina who literally only benefits from the AD, passive, and tenacity.

Also - With a 2 minute cooldown, and a 3 secondd uptime on the buff, you guys are definitely overestimating the overall survivability increase on the passive. Poppy's passive reduces all incoming damage over 10% of her health by 50% constantly, making her very hard to burst down, however poppy is more of a caster than an autoattacker. As where this item provides you additional damage reduction, it only has a 3 second uptime. 10x EHP is a MAJOR overestimation of the passive. It's limited uptime is why I didn't include the clause "Does not reduce damage from structures."

Also @The Blue Jelly - Did you play in season 1 at all? Just wondering. Back then, when MADC's were not only viable, but as junglers or solotops were a force to be feared. The biggest thing that changed was the re-structuring of the jungle, making it harder to farm just jungling and encouraging junglers to build gp10 items, and the introduction of a good many new Fighter/Brawler champions with better-than-good early game damage and sustain (We're looking at Rengar here)


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
As for your item, it seems to offer literally every stat a Physical Damage dealer could want, except for Armor Pen.
Notice the lack of life steal, movement speed, and a persistant survivability increase? It's got an anti-burst cooldown but no health, no resists. What I do think is that maybe 50 AD is too much, and it should be lowered to 40 to bring it in line with the two AD items used to build it.


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Bamp.


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