I dont understand why teams dont let supports

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Tha Dynamite

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Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictues View Post
it seems a lot of people seem to think supports add nothing at all to bottom fights and lane control.
if so, then sure the gp10 items on the support really are un important.

if that dorans blade is so vital on the adc, maybe the adc should take it easy and not go all in until he gets it or maybe the support can pick up the slack until he gets it.



point being that gp10 items become more effecient the earlier you get them, and on builds that are reliant on gp10 items for gold production and use more than one gp10 item, the earlier they get their first gp10 item the earlier they can start snowballing their gp10 process.


now practicallity and effeciency are two separate things. but from straight theory crafting perspective, its more effecient to help a support get that first gp 10 item right away.
Are you here to get advice? Or are you here just to argue?

A support is capable of performing its role nearly optimally without much items. A carry cannot.
Would getting GP10 early help as much as an AD having 10 extra AD early? No. It wouldn't.

Supports pretty much provides two things in a fight: CC and healing. CC is reliant on skills, not gold. Healing is reliant on AP, and supports get none of that.
ADCs provide one thing in a fight: damage. Damage is reliant on gold. That's it.

Think about it.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictues View Post
now practicallity and effeciency are two separate things. but from straight theory crafting perspective, its more effecient to help a support get that first gp 10 item right away.
This is from incomplete theory-crafting perspective.

If you look at the support in a vacuum, and only look at his build, of course it's better for him to get his GP10 item as early as possible. Of course it's going to help him build the rest of his build more quickly.

But you've left out an extraordinary amount of math in your equation here.

Suppose your teammate ADC and the enemy ADC are equally good at last-hitting. The enemy ADC's support is not hitting minions; he's taking the slow path to the GP10. Meanwhile, your ADC is giving you some early hits.

What item are you going to build?
Philosopher Stone to get some health/mana regen?
Heart of Gold (which is being removed) to get some health?
Kage's Lucky Pick to get some AP?
Avarice Blade to get some crit?

Tell me, what are you building?

Because the enemy ADC is either picking up a Doran's Blade and some more potions, or he's getting about an 800 gold head start on a BF sword. Maybe he's most of the way toward completing a Phage if he starts Tri-Force.

Whatever is going on, it now means that your team is losing trades. The game is snowbally. If the enemy ADC is going to be able to continuously win trades with your ADC and force your ADC out of lane, then your ADC is going to miss EVEN MORE CS after he already donated some to you. Each time this happens, the enemy ADC gets farther and farther and farther ahead. It can be extremely difficult for your ADC to catch up.


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GarbGarb

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Junior Member

11-10-2012

The thing about this is that a support is meant to have gold masteries to and some runes too. Also a carry really needs to get gold faster than you because at late/mid game a carry will do a lot more damage than a support.


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Epictues

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboRal View Post
Are you here to get advice? Or are you here just to argue?


lol was thinking the same thing about u.


for someone saying that extra 300gold on the carry = to winning all trades; you are forgetting there are 2 ppl bottom lane involved in the trades. Which could mean more snowballs that hit harder and more and health regen for nunu.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-10-2012

The only way a carry is hitting harder with a GP10 is if you've got Volibear support with a W that scales to health, a Vladimir support that scales with health and AP, or a support that scales with AP.

But even in the situation where you've got a support that scales to AP (for Kage's Lucky Pick), it's still not as much damage that you'd have if you had the gold on your ADC to build AD. Yes, there are two people involved in trades, health only helps you in a trade if the person being focused has the extra health. If the enemy duo bottom is focusing your support, you're going to win the lane anyway, almost no matter what you do.

If the enemy duo bottom is focusing your ADC (as they should be), well your ADC is 300g behind the enemy ADC. You're losing trades.

Now, 300g may not seem like that much, but that's about 3 waves of minions.

If you can feed your support that gold, get him back to base to buy the GP10, and then return to lane, and keep the enemy ADC in lane long enough that BOTH ADCs can afford the same item (for example, your ADC has 475, their ADC has 775), then they can both only afford Doran's Blade, so it's not that big of a deal. But you MUST force their ADC to stay in lane.

If the enemy ADC can get back while he has 475g and your ADC has 175g, then he's going to come back with a Doran's Blade. And the problem here is that it all starts to snowball.


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Epictues

Senior Member

11-10-2012

maybe it would be beneficial for the adc to let the support get some quick farm once he sees that he has 450 gold or so.


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Tha Dynamite

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Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictues View Post
lol was thinking the same thing about u.


for someone saying that extra 300gold on the carry = to winning all trades; you are forgetting there are 2 ppl bottom lane involved in the trades. Which could mean more snowballs that hit harder and more and health regen for nunu.
Wow. No. You don't understand how this game works.

First of all, the only GP10 item that gives more damage to Nunu snowballs is Kage's. Nunus pretty much never get that. In fact, there are only one or two supports that do.

Second of all, 15 HP5 for 800 gold is not worth as much as an AD's 10 AD for 475 gold. Even if you want to talk about Regrowth Pendant, 15 HP5 is not better than 10 AD overall.
10 AD is the equivalent to 50 damage/5 or more.

That is the concrete reason. There is no arguing it. GP10 items do NOT outweigh a carry's damage. That is why supports give up last-hits to the carry.

But if you want to argue, why don't you stop theorycrafting? Find a team that will let you do this and see how it works for you. Its not like there isn't a reason nobody else does this.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictues View Post
maybe it would be beneficial for the adc to let the support get some quick farm once he sees that he has 450 gold or so.
Why?


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Epictues

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Why?

because apparently the big reason for not doing it is the difference that first dorans blade makes on the adc. so once the adc has enough for the dorans blade then you can switch over to the support


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Rezo

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Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethadind View Post
Essentially every CS matters, because every small advantage matters.

Low Elo does not understand this but they see the high Elo players doing this and decide it's "how you play the game." They hold to it (though they don't really think about why, the simple "ADC needs the gold" is explanation enough for them). A good example of why is that first Doran's blade for 475 gold in high-elo is HUGE. An additional 80 health and 10 attack damage means that you win the all-in trade with 100 health left.
I edited the post a little to get to the point with less words but it really is that simple. No its not ok for the support to take CS that the range adc can get. Even a single health potion can make a difference. Lethadind mentioned asking the adc if its ok to take some CS but it should be clarified that generally this is a bad idea unless you already have the advantage. If you're on some form of voice chat you can ask if your within like 100g of getting something and the enemy adc is dead but to type it out and talk about it don't even bother its unlikely to be worth the potential of missing a cs while typing.

Bottom line is if you don't understand why support doesn't take CS then you don't understand the balance of power (aka position of power). If you don't understand that its unlikely that you are a great support.

Edit: let me correct that last line... If you don't understand that its unlikely that you are a great anything.


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