This thread was created after the suggestion of a person from the EU forums to post on the NA branch due to the lack of activity from RIOT there where it could possibly gather more attention here as I had found some people who agreed with this post, I hope you might take this in consideration.
This is the original thread: http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=901644
*WARNING: Before you might attempt to read this if you have the time or not, I would like to explain a couple of things at the very end so if you don’t have time scroll down and I’ll explain why I opened this thread. It's a wall of text Tl;DR version in case I manage to be more concise.
Hello LoL community, I’m here to tell a tale of Fate and a Children’s Card Game.
That’s right, it’s Twisted Fate, and I understand how some may feel about our favourite King of Card games but this thread wants to analyse his current position in League of Legends.
(Keep in mind that I don’t want to pretend that I’m a pro at the game, however, I’d like to express my feelings about this.)
Below are Twisted Fate’s base statistics (straight off the LoL wiki):
Health: 382 with an increment of 82 per level.
Health Regeneration: 4.5 with an increment of 0.6 per level
Mana: 202 with an increment of 38 per level
Mana Regeneration: 6.5 with an increment of 0.5 per level
Attack Damage: 46.41 with an increment of 3.3 per level
Attack Speed: 0.651 with an increment of 3.22% per level
Armor: 11.25 with an increment of 3.15 per level
Magic Resistance: 30
Movement Speed: 305
Attack Range: 525
He is extremely squishy, so much so that he is considered among the squishiest champions in the game.
His armor scaling is among the worst of the mid champions as well as in terms of base armor, with only Orianna, Zyra, and Heimerdinger having a lower scaling, all of them nerfed in the past and considered to be risky or useless picks apart from Zyra.
In terms of HP Twisted Fate also has a rough time, ranking among the lower end having mixed results surpassing some mid champions in terms of Base HP and losing in the scaling and vice versa.
His statistics are not stellar, especially those that I have not yet presented. This will however be covered in conjunction with specific parts of the thread that I will illustrate later, as his current condition is connected strongly to what he used to be once.
As many of you might know or might find out in an instant, Twisted Fate was a long time ago considered to be among the most OP champions in the entire history of League of Legends, together with Jax, Xin, Udyr, Ezreal, Evelynn and Twitch. This was due to a completely different skill set that he possessed at the time and caused him to be reworked because of his game breaking potential.
In fact here is what Twisted Fate’s kit used to be:
Q – Wild Cards: the same move however, with a higher AP ratio which oscillated between 0.75 to 0.8 to 1.0. Magic Damage: 60 / 120 / 180 / 240 / 300 the base damage was higher as well.
W – Pick A Card: The cycle started with Blue > Red > Gold and it was always like that, regardless of what you picked. The effects were also different as well as the damage associated with the cards.
Blue simply gave additional damage and allowed you to pick another card with an additional Magic Damage: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 and did not refund mana.
Red used to do what it does now however inflicting more Magic Damage: 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 it was however considered useless due to what Gold Card did.
Gold was an AoE stun that dealt additional Magic Damage: 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 and stunned for longer.
The AP ratio was the same as today’s Pick A Card, that is 0.4 with no AD ratio.
E – Gate: The now ultimate of Twisted Fate used to be a normal E spell with a Cooldown: 90 / 75 / 60 / 45 / 30 seconds. The teleport took 3 seconds of channeling to take effect and was literally global (which hasn’t been nerfed until recently). However in case Destiny was being used, Gate was made to be practically instant.
R – Destiny: This ultimate used to slow all the enemy champions by 45% and lasted for about 4 / 5 / 6 seconds as well as revealing everyone on the map as it does now.
Passive – Second Sight: Used to grant 3/4/5% critical chance to the team.
This is the kit that made Twisted Fate to be considered OP. And I must admit that it was incredibly strong, since there was the possibility for Twisted Fate to be able to store Gold Cards which would stun entire teams during teamfights.
Twisted Fate at this stage was Overpowered, and the claims for a nerf were surely not unfounded, hence the rework.
However, his subsequent rework left a mark of his old self negatively on his current situation. The base stats were increased but were deeply insignificant compared to how much his kit had changed. The traces still remained and apparently it was expected of Twisted Fate to perform the same tasks with the reworked kit. Unluckily he could not. I found out he was tagged as a “flee” champion despite having no escapes at this stage. Here comes into play his squishy nature, where it was assumed that he could perform the same tasks that he could in the past.
Of course he could escape since his teleport was practically instant with the old Destiny. I haven’t found this information but I read in the forums that his Ultimate used to refresh the cooldown on Gate as well as make his Gate impossible to interrupt during the really brief channeling. Whether it is true or not it already gave him a reliable escape that he now does not possess. His very low movement speed for an AP mid with no reliable escapes and his low attack range already gimps him. His movement speed was due to exactly the capability to teleport away with a 90% success rate, which again was assumed he would be capable of doing.
His ratios were also higher as well as the base damage on his abilities which made sense with a character that already had a limited amount of spells to deal damage with.
The entirety of his kit made him OP in the past and he was still pretty easy to kill should you be able to land a stun due to Twisted Fate being squishy, still being an easy target especially without the ultimate.
Twisted Fate is still considered a decent, albeit risky, pick. He is picked for the lane pressure he can exert due to his ultimate, and in the past used to be an excellent backdoorer until the ultimate nerf. In fact, he fell out of use because of that simple nerf, until people started to use him as an AP mid, where he could somewhat exert some pressure.
He is however a pick that in one way does not represent the birth of the current meta yet is in another way a part of it. For example, he’s one of the few champions that makes the AD carry mid viable. Since Twisted Fate is not a burst champion with no escapes or steroids, he cannot 1v1 carries not even post six unless Twisted Fate gets his main items, which take a lot of time to get, ending more often than not with a Lichbane after laning phase is over. Being also independent from the blue during the laning phase it makes the need to be close to the Blue redundant. These two reasons are strongly connected to why the AD carry mid meta fell out, since burst champions could dominate the carries as soon as they hit lvl 6 and were closer to the Blue buff so that they could grab it easily, in fact, TF shares the same weaknesses of the AD carries, burst champions.
However Twisted Fate, due to his Ultimate exerts his pressure through ganks which are an integral part of this farming and ganking meta. This is the only reason Twisted Fate is still around and usually when he fails to do so becomes a burden to the team. In fact, most of the AP champions can do what he has to offer a lot better. His ganking being his only redeeming point but is sometimes not enough since the teams have learned to play very passively in the presence of a Twisted Fate, relegating him to mostly farming the mid lane and hope for ganks until his utility wears off significantly throughout the game.
Another downside his incapability to lead a 2v1 even if fed, unusual among mid champions since characters like Orianna, Katarina, Akali and others can do so if fed, with the only exception of, champions that are considered weak or supports to begin with, like Soraka, Heimerdinger and Sona to name a few.
Current Problems with the Abilities
The Card Master has a hard time landing damage safely in many occasions where the opponents have gap closers or spells that can be cast just before the stun actually takes effects.
Examples are Lee Sin, Riven, Irelia, Shen, Renekton, much of the bruisers who also tend to use Mercury’s Threads.
From the AP branch we have people like Vlad, Kassadin, Annie, Brand, Orianna, Ryze, Gragas, Karthus and many others, that can already exchange against a Twisted Fate emerging victorious.
In fact his kit does not allow him to counter anyone. It is uncommon for a champion to not be a Hard counter to another champion when you talk about middle laners, while he is countered by many champions. He used to be able to counter Eve, but as of recent as soon as Eve reaches lvl 6 TF is dead in mid lane. His kit is lackluster compared to that of many others.
Twisted Fate is one of the very few champions who actually have only 2 reliable sources of damage from their abilities as mages. The others commonly being supports such as Zilean, having only one source of damage, while others being possible AP picks such as Teemo and Nunu. Already we’re talking about picks that are not strong per se and are entirely situational.
The kit of Twisted Fate does not allow mistakes, and should they happen in 90% of the times it is going to result in your death or a botched gank and thus loss of potential farm and possibly a tower. These are the risks involved in picking a Twisted Fate. Hence why the abilities have a problem, especially in teamfights where he can be subpar in his performance for the team.
Q – Wild Cards: This skillshot has been nerfed to shreds, now having only 0.65 AP ratio while at the same time being easy to dodge, more so than Diana’s Q. It does have a long a range, but the further it gets, the easier it is to dodge it. You can land it easily as a follow up to Gold Card however if the target flashes away you can say goodbye to your damage.
W – Pick A Card: The most valuable of TF’s kit as well as being the most problematic of the abilities. The rotation can sometimes spell either your doom or your salvation and is susceptible to lag. Often times you will have to wait for the right card when it is too late or you might press too quickly due to a panic pick, which under pressure isn’t that hard to pull off, and you’re dead. It is the most unforgiving of his abilities. Not only that, but the enemies can see what you pick clearly, therefore making them run away from you or rendering your intentions obvious even by just triggering Pick A Card, making it hard for you to land your W+Q combo. And if you think matters got better, well, the ability puts you in front of so many decisions that can make you or your teammate die in teamfights, when you’re out of mana, and it does happen especially early game since a Blue card can restore enough mana for 1 single Wild Card while you hope your Wild Card hits.
E – Stacked Deck: I only counted Q and W as reliable damage sources due to the simple fact that this ability requires you to be auto attacking. As AP your Attack Speed is not adept to trigger it often enough with the Attack Speed steroid being trivial, especially if the enemy has a Frozen Heart or Raduin’s, and charging it is troublesome even in lane if your opponent is aggressive, which they tend to be if you’re TF. First off your role in the team fight is to be picking a card either Red or Gold and then Wild Cards and then back from the teamfight.
Since if they usually get you you’re dead most of the times, you cannot use auto attacks to make it trigger often, not only that but the scaling for AP is also bad, a mere 0.4 for an ability you can trigger every 4 hits. This is made even more difficult because TF’s range does not allow him to do that, his range being also one of the reasons he cannot be an effective AD carry. This ability is subpar in many senses.
R – Destiny/Gate: This ultimate does not offer much. Contrary to what many believe, it is nothing more than a porting ability that can be interrupted easily especially if you lane against Ahri. Late game its capability to check for the position of the enemy is excellent but since you can’t pick 1 player and kill him as by then everyone is moving together, the porting ability is useless unless you want to improvise an escape or catch stragglers from a won team fight, and even then you need to be careful on WHO you duel. It used to be useful for backdooring when it was global but is now hard to pull it off if you’re pushing top and your team is pushing bot and at risk of engagement, at which point you might want to stay with your team.
Passive – Loaded Dice: Among the worst passives in the game, surpassed only by Eve’s old passive, it is that useless. If the enemy team is careful you’re guaranteed to farm but even then when you get 200 CS it amounts to 400g, insignificant since a single minion could be worth 9 to 18 times as much and 400 g doesn’t even afford you an Amplifying Tome, not only that but the passive is useless if you’re dead. It doesn’t help you survive but wants you to farm when you, in theory, should be ganking other lanes. Some people might argue it pays for wards and potions, the problem is that the support is mostly the one who is going to buy wards the most and is not going to CS anyway and people manage perfectly without TF’s passive in all the other games that he is not present.
His kit now makes less sense than what it did in the past and is obviously a lot weaker since the base damage has also been nerfed along with the ratios. Not to mention that he’s incredibly item dependent, pretty much like an AD carry. Since the DFG nerf, which was at times used on TF especially against tanky teams, another source of damage was removed, limiting even more his already limited damage.
Recently I have noticed how Twisted Fate is being played less and less especially in Tournaments, where in very rare occasions he’s used or banned, mainly by the Asian teams. In the occasions where Twisted Fate is actually picked, I hardly saw him snowball out of control as it happens with many other champions should they receive 2 or 3 kills. Watching some streams and videos on Youtube, as well as Ranked games through the spectator mode, I have noticed how hardly Twisted Fate had a clear impact on the game he was in, often having a mediocre score and porting mainly for emergencies, where sometimes caused the opponent to get a double kill.
Since I heard he’s sometimes a ban or pick I can understand how easy it is to counter him in lane, he’s susceptible to burst champions and as well as those who have a gap closer that can destroy him 1v1 as he is a terrible duelist especially if the enemy team has Mercury’s Threads which reduces the duration of the stun. Champions in the middle lane like Annie, Brand, Ryze, Akali, Katarina, Diana and many more can literally murder him and some of these are also effective roamers that can intercept Twisted Fate’s ultimates and impact on the game, since these champions can roam effectively and with a steadier rate than a TF. This is why he is a risky pick often overlooked by the pro teams, because he is not effective in what he brings to the table.
The Asian scenario holds different reasons to why he is banned, and as always it is meta restricted. Their strategy is about pushing the lanes and destroying towers, forcing objectives fast and efficiently. It was bound to happen that he was going to be banned for what he can do, that is, push. He can counter push efficiently which in the Western meta it is often not preferable to overly push due to the farming nature and “waiting for the late game” trend. Having a Twisted Fate on your team prevents the opponents from pushing to your tower as well as defend other towers by teleporting. Bear in mind however, that he is banned for the exact same reason Kassadin is banned in the lower Elo. It’s because Kassadin counters the AP mid meta while still having everything you want from your AP mid albeit not as efficiently as other AP mid laners but still capable of doing what the AP mid can do with lower results. In fact Kassadin is far from OP and can be countered with a few champions that require top lane to be AP most of the times. But since the organized teams and higher Elo players I assume tend to be more flexible and have more knowledge of the game, these characters are not banned everytime. Whereas for the lower Elos the players look for something more stabilisied and rigid and will not pick an AD champion mid such as Talon or Pantheon to counter Kassadin, and assume the usual behavior of living in the bubble knowing only the “meta”.
During the World Championships of Season 2 I have hardly ever seen Twisted Fate being picked or banned even by the Asian teams, and even when he wasn’t banned he wasn’t picked.
Why pick Twisted Fate when Karthus can do what Twisted Fate does but 100 times better?
Karthus doesn’t even need to show up to aid his fellow laners and can freely dive in a teamfight and still be useful after death, to the point where pretty much every team struggled to deal with Karthus and was frequently banned or picked as well as usually giving victory to the team that used it.
AD vs AP and Possible changes
AD TF is currently not viable due to some problems present with AP TF and more. His lack of an escape or movement steroid as well as a low movement speed make him an easy target, being already more squishy than many AD carries present. His low range and lack of abilities gimp his capability to deal damage and you can feel it if you ever tried to play him as AD as well as his low (again among the lowest) Attack Damage scaling. The 15% increase in Attack Speed if maxed is ok but not enough. The current choices just make him less viable than Vayne, Ashe and even Teemo in the current meta. However, AD can be another role that could be good if some changes are made.
Some ideas on how to fix TF to make him decent but not broken could be these (These include changes that will make AD viable):
Q – Wild Cards: The most obvious changes are an increase in the AP ratio possibly to 0.8 with an additional AD ratio for AD TF of 0.3 or 0.4. In TF’s AP build no AD is present, which is not an overbuff for both builds since none of the two builds actually include the counterpart.
W – Pick A Card: Even though the system with which it works is highly risky, it is fine, it is manageable but stressing and at times hard to pick correctly due to overcrowding of champions that do not let you see the card. However, removing the possibility for the enemy to see when you activate PAC and what you choose could be better with no other changes to ratios or base damage.
E/Passive – As some other people have suggested, making his current E his passive to actually scale with the levels. However, include an AD ratio with it as well, possibly to the same level of the current AP ratio of 0.4 and increasing the latter by 0.1, hence making AD 0.4 and AP 0.5. A possible increase in the attack speed to 20% if max level might be interesting as well as reducing the amount of AAs to trigger the Passive to 3 from 4 but both are not necessary and might end in an overbuff.
Regarding E an ability that can allow him to use as a steroid or for damage or, as later suggested to grant this E a blink and have the ultimate have another effect.
R – Destiny/Gate: This is a tricky one however I do think it needs some change. There are a couple of solutions that I have considered after observing RIOT’s policy in nerfing global ultimates. Even recently they nerfed Karthus’ and Shen’s ultimates since what RIOT wanted to prevent was a stale and passive laning phase caused by simply picking champions like TF, Karthus, Shen and Pantheon (to some extent Nocturne). The change is to make it so TF will have a blink like the one Kassadin has, with no mana cost addition nor damage and additional damage. A simple blink like LeBlanc’s W without any damage added to it on a CD akin to that of Kassadin. As an assassin he’s practically the only one that lacks such a gap closer. Even at the cost of lowering the movement speed to 300 from 305.
Another option could be to restore the old movement speed reduction, only this time at 30% rather than 45%.
Obviously this is an idea, however an increase to the range of Twisted Fate to 550 should be legitimate especially since his kit requires it both for AP and AD.
Final Remarks (EU)
Now, I understand that RIOT might not be interested in this, as well as many of you who would like to see this champion buried beneath a pile of Yu Gi Oh cards forever and ever. But I still think this was worth the try at least for those of you who actually took the time to read what I had to say. You can make any comments you like I don’t mind if you flame me for what I wrote but this is just what I think is best for this champion that I think deserves a better fate.
I understand that RIOT does it for the money and really, I already gave them quite a chunk because it is a good game that I’d like to play (spent on TF skins btw) although I had something to express here that I think had to be addressed. Whether they’ll take notice of this I don’t know since they’re mainly concerned about the NA servers and forums, maybe this thread will just wither away with the others but these are just my 2 cents. Of course there are other champions that need a fix but I’ll assure you, as soon as the meta significantly changes and there will be changes due to the Jungle remake, you’ll see TF being useless with his current kit both as AD and AP. It’s up to RIOT to make the changes but I’ll see whether this even receives a couple of views, thank you for your attention.
Final Remarks (NA)
It's pretty much the same thing from the (EU) one, however this was due to the fact on how RIOT handled the different regions with different manners. Regardless, I know RIOT is working on the Season 3 at this moment, but this could be an excellent chance to look at this champion with many flaws and to correct them so as not to become too dependent on the meta. Thanks again for your attention.
*This thread is long but because I think Twisted Fate deserved such an explanation. It’s true I’m not a pro but I think that this champion deserves more than what he has as he is mistakenly taken as an “OP” or “Balanced” champion whereas he’s hard to play and nowhere near as rewarding as a perfectly played Orianna as well as having many bad attributes that once the meta shifts you will notice how TF will just fall apart. Of course, as it happens in every “buff x” thread there is a degree of bias, because people love “x” champ. But I tried to bring a little bit more facts than that, and I wanted to include the comparison between other champion’s utility and more numbers but it’s so long that people would just be bored by it. Yes I do love TF, it has been my main since I was level 9 and bought him thinking it was like Invoker in the playstyle, which I hated tbh, but found myself loving the champion at first game.
Regardless of any of that I also wanted to remind the people the TRUE meaning of OP, when they don’t even know about how Jax could 1v5 an entire team in the past just stacking dodge and Xin could build full tank and do the same. With Olaf and Udyr being able to achieve similar feats while TF and Eve could just gank and 1v1 at best in their peak but bringing more utility than others. And I wanted to tell you this, there are more champions now than in those times, if you could bring back old EZ, old TF and old Eve I could assure you that during the Bruiser Meta their effect would have been much less felt than in the past where the champions were more squishy and there was little choice as well as being less effective now in this era. Try putting Olaf vs old TF, and you’d see TF ulting away because he can’t stun nor kill Olaf while his ultimate is on and even without it, or even Irelia. TF is considered an assassin but can hardly burst down anyway like any other of his kind and actually being extremely weak to them, nor has any gap closers, and he’s not even a burst mage for the same reasons, he is subpar also in terms of utility, shadowed by Orianna in a teamfight, much more useful than TF. He is one of the champs that need a buff like Heimerdinger or many other who are currently not even considered. It is still a wall of text but less so than the previous one.
P.S: After the MLG the same scenario repeated with TF hardly being picked and when it was TF ended with negative scores and had to be carried by the team like i stated as well as using the teleportation for emergencies and sometimes giving a kill to the enemy team while doing so, having a minor impact on the game, were it not for Shy and Captain Jack carrying the game.
Edit: I have heard scrolling through the forums that RIOT has the intention of buffing burst champions.
Should this be the case we'll most likely see less of TF being used since burst champions destroy him and might turn out that a rebirth of said burst champions could bring so much more on the table than a TF could hence overshadowing him. It could be possible.
Edit2: Well people don't seem to realise the actual position of TF, plus the nerf to Lich Bane in MS and MR and now only 75% AP. TF being practically the only one buying the item. Probably not ready yet, however it was confirmed RIOT wants Burst champions and Assassins viable, who are the direct counters to TF. If we'll see them more often, we'll see TF less because he will simply get obliterated. Oh well I put a lot of effort into this and tried to explain the situation but... alas we'll see.
I wanted to thank Shinmey88 immensely for supporting this thread and the other TF threads. Thank you very much. Let's hope RIOT makes the better choice.
This was a worthwhile and interesting read.
My opinion: Twisted fate is a very special case. He's that champion that smacks hard with a spell, but has to run for dear life as he can't continue trade for very long if the enemy has a dash or sustain. I try to overcome this by building a bit of a hybrid, grabbing some attack speed/cd with Nashor's, while still grabbing the conventional AP holy grails. In this way after pulling off the stun-wildcard combo, I can still continue to dish damage out. It makes many reconsider fully committing to a trade.
His R and E are mixed bags. The E comes in handy if you build like I mentioned earlier, add a sheen and you can do some serious burst with it too. However, if you are going traditional burst caster, its usefulness is virtually non-existent. Onto his R. Well in its current state is a knee-jerk reaction to it's original devastating effects and almost seem like a punishment his original "overpowered-ness". Riot has become very cautious in relation to global ults. Fate seems to be an example of what happens when you introduce a mechanic you have not fully tested out into a game like LoL. It was however, fun while it lasted :P Currently, he feels like a giant walking ward, and gating will often get you killed or flamed by your team if it backfires. I am also under the impression that in it's current state Destiny is intended to troll you for even touching R. For example: recently it has come to my attention that the circle of cards from Destiny can sometimes be seen by those standing outside of a bush you are gating from or to if the graphics extend even slightly beyond the bush. Crafty individuals play coy until you exit the bush and surprise you with death.
In the end, he's a very situational champion that really shines if played well. But if you goof, you are punished severely, especially with Pick A Card. Sometimes you even feel like you have no real impact on a match...
"Oh God you've fed Twisted Fate!" - No one, ever.
Thank you for your consideration, I appreciate it, and yes I have to agree with you on certain aspects of TF.
As stated before I wanted to add a little more comparing him to other champions but it would take too long for the thread. But as of now, TF is mainly built with the traditional Rabadon, Lich, Void and then either Zhonyas, Abyssal, Banshee or WOTA. I've seen some arguments for hybrid TF but when I tried it it wasn't that convincing. TF is a weird champion because built Hybrid it doesn't feel optimal since it's not like Jax or Eve.
Nevertheless thank you for sharing your opinion.
As a last remark, the new Jungle remake comes with a precise objective, and that is to reduce the ganks, should this show a trend to introduce duelists and teamfighters and an increased reduction of ganks coming out of focus, TF might possibly disappear. Since TF is so tied to the current meta hence why it is used.
I cannot stress enough the reason for all this.
A strong example is Trundle, a strong champion that does not fit the meta, just like Ezreal was, strong champions that do not fit the current meta.
TF is the opposite case, a champion that is weak but currently fits the meta. Should the meta switch and it will, these champions will become used again.
In fact, reading Stonewall's posts regarding the remake, Trundle is the favourite in reappearing into play due to the changes. Of course there are other champions that are in the same situations hence the "hidden OP".
I've always said that ironically as a master of cards, (based off his lines) luck, and cheating he is the most readable champion in the game.
You can literally see his Q coming from half the lane away
As stated in the article, you know when to back off from his W based on the color
You know exactly which attack will proc his E
His ult tells everyone on the enemy team when your about to teleport and gives an obvious point which you are teleporting to
as for your EU thread, you have my support
and here is my suggestion to fix TF :
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