Preseason Itemization Preview

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vairoletto

Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KettleKern View Post
Do Yorick ghoul autos apply BC?
I came to ask the same thing, his W and E do magic damage so they wont proc the new BC, but a Q charged autoattack+your 3 ghouls AAs would instantly max BC if this work.


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Droogslayer

Senior Member

11-07-2012

This all sounds so cool except for one small problem, the new black cleaver is a normal passive, so having 4 of them will reduce 100% armour. Unless ofcourse this was simply an example.


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FlippantFox

Senior Member

11-07-2012

@ Xypherous:

Maybe you're tired of seeing this question already, but...

Will we be seeing AD + AS items in the new setup? For instance, a Phantom Dancer that gives AD instead of Critical Strike %?

Similarly, will we be seeing additional AP + AD items for champions that scale off of both attributes?


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Samflash3

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Have you tried the new items on Sivir? She seems like she can fill the AD caster role really well with her skillset. Richochet, bouncing blades, cooldown reduction item with shred? Ability to kite and shield? Maybe this will make manamune or chalice good on her.
Plus does it scale well into the late game? I hate to think that i'd have to go IE & PD after all this is done.


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Tenjix

Junior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
Quote:
There was a give and take. If game lasted too long, you sell brut and buy LW. What's the problem?
There's two problems here:

1. Early game pen values were essentially tuned to be viable up until mid-game, which means that if you didn't stack early armor, you had zero armor.

2. Stacking early armor turned the flip-side of the problem onto the AD in question - because now they needed to give up their current advantages (Brutalizer) in favor of a % solution even if their flat penetration was good enough to kill a carry.

3. Meanwhile, carries just get a the amount of % armor penetration from Last Whisper so Tanks die while AD Casters pay a 600 Gold Tax for being in the late game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
So, if you're a tanky AD Caster, like Renekton or Garen, you'll be shredding the armor of the enemy team. While if you're a selfish AD Caster like Pantheon or Talon, you might consider Brutalizer into Last Whisper.
Does this mean you will be able to upgrade Brutalizer to Last Whisper?


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Rpture Frenchie

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Looking forward to all the great changes in the game HERE COMES THE EGGROLL!!!


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Auricthunder

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Droogslayer View Post
This all sounds so cool except for one small problem, the new black cleaver is a normal passive, so having 4 of them will reduce 100% armour. Unless ofcourse this was simply an example.
Also, four Black Cleavers would be (1 - 25%) x (1 - 25%) x (1 - 25%) x (1 - 25%) = 75% x 75% x 75% x 75% = 31.6% or 68.4% reduced armor.


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Grellmax

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodeuss1990 View Post
I love you Xypherous.


EDIT: What items will you be adding to help Melee AD Carries? What about AD Casters and AD Assassins? I main champions like Riven, Fiora, Master Yi, Tryndamere, Xin Zhao, Jax, and Lee Sin.


EDIT #2: OH MY GOD. Dat new Black Cleaver. BARE MY CHILDREN?
Make your children naked?!


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xkawazux

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yeah. Sorc Shoes / Haunting Guise / Void Staff is stronger while Sorc Shoes / Haunting Guise / Abyssal is weaker for the purposes of negating enemy MR.

Sorc Shoes / Haunting Guise both took a flat pen hit, by balanced out by the fact that they work better with your 10% pen from masteries - it doesn't really equate to a lot of damage difference.
Are you reducing flat pen runes as well?

Are you going to reduce the price of sorc shoes to compensate?

Is haunting guise going to get a build path like brutalizer?


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Trevallion

Senior Member

11-07-2012

The new Black Cleaver and the change to penetration effects sound cool. I have a question about a different aspect of AD casters. Currently it's much easier to balance damage and defense on AP champions because there are so many solid AP damage items that also give a good balance of defensive stats. In fact, you almost have to go out of your way to not pick up any defense in a full AP build. Even if you manage to completely avoid defensive stats, you're still likely to pick up utility stuff like spell vamp or the DFG active. Do this on an AD caster and you get stuck with lots of stats you don't really care about, like crit, life steal, and attack speed. When picking out "slot efficient" items on AD you have to decide between damage or defense when you're deciding what to pick up, with the exception of Hexdrinker/Maw of Malmortius. I think this gives AD casters a weirder power curve than AP casters because they never get tankier while being able to deal more damage. They're always having to choose between one or the other. Even if they end up with the same balance of defense and damage, the AD's stats will be focused in individual item slots instead of balanced throughout their entire build like APs.

Generally, most AP items have about 80 AP with a defensive stat, utility effect, or penetration added on. Most AD items have a varying range of AD, which is usually inversely proportional to the amount of defense on the item. For a specific example, Rylai's Crystal Scepter has 500 health, 80 AP, and adds a slowing effect to your abilities. There's also Rod of Ages, which trades the slowing effect for a bit more health and mana. The only comparable AD item is Frozen Mallet, which gives a paltry amount of AD in exchange for a stronger slow and more health. The only health/mana item for ADs is trinity force, which is a great item that helps ADs with a few of their troubles, but doesn't really fit into the same niche for ADs as Rylais or RoA do for APs.

I think it's mostly a problem in the lane phase because if you want to counter build your opponent as an AD caster (particularly against another AD champion), you have to build an item that doesn't transition into a useful mid game damage item for you. As an AP you can pick up a chain vest or a negatron cloak and turn them into Zhonya's Hourglass or Abyssal Scepter. Or you could grab a catalyst or giant's belt and build RoA or Rylai's if you prefer health and/or mana. The damage/defense options for ADs are far more limited and far less effective for mid game damage and defense. Basically my options are phage to mallet/trinity force, hexdrinker to maw, or wriggles. I assume part of this will be addressed when you move around defensive stats, but it would be nice to be able to pick up a 700-1300g defensive item that builds into a useful offensive item later.

I'm not opposed to having to choose between defense and offense, but it definitely feels like a disadvantage to be forced into picking one or the other while AP champions can choose both at once. Especially since ADs typically have to get up close and personal more than APs. Is there anything being added to close this gap? I'm not saying we should have an AD RoA or an AD Rylai's, but it would be nice to be able to get tankier without being forced to buy full tank items.

Apologies in advance if this was hard to read. Typing on my phone between classes. Thanks for the hard work, Riot!