[Solo Q Secrets #001] Surrendering Wins Games

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ryzeonline

Senior Member

11-08-2012

lol Okay man, keep hatin'

I agree with you. Losing sucks. I never even implied that "losing" doesn't suck. That has nothing to do with whether or not I've offered an interesting experiment for others.




Do you need someone big & powerful & famous to help you understand failure, winning, losing, and the power of experimentation?



Perhaps you'd listen to Michael Jordan talk about "losing", "failure", and the amount of times and things he's "tried":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc

Or maybe you'll listen when Tiger Woods, who even though he was already at the top of his game, decided to EXPERIMENT and totally change his swing.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-16168919.html

But the impression I'm getting is you're not interested in broadening your horizons, opening your mind, or co-operating with others - so you probably wouldn't listen to a single shred from anyone

So hate on, bro.

Quote:
“What are you complaining about? What do you think a haters job is? To hate! So let them do they job. What is you complaining about? Ladies if you got 14 women hatin’ on you, you need to figure out how to get to 16 before the summer get here. Fellas if you got 20 haters, you need 40 -- what the is you complaining about?” - Katt Williams
(expletives deleted )


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Etherimp

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritSentient View Post
lol Okay man, keep hatin'

I agree with you. Losing sucks. I never even implied that "losing" doesn't suck. That has nothing to do with whether or not I've offered an interesting experiment for others.




Do you need someone big & powerful & famous to help you understand failure, winning, losing, and the power of experimentation?



Perhaps you'd listen to Michael Jordan talk about "losing", "failure", and the amount of times and things he's "tried":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc

Or maybe you'll listen when Tiger Woods, who even though he was already at the top of his game, decided to EXPERIMENT and totally change his swing.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-16168919.html

But the impression I'm getting is you're not interested in broadening your horizons, opening your mind, or co-operating with others - so you probably wouldn't listen to a single shred from anyone

So hate on, bro.



(expletives deleted )
Are you on drugs?


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Jowabunga

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Is ELO really that much more important than how much fun you are or are not having?


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Ezrabar

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherimp View Post
Are you on drugs?
Etherimp, what op means is not to accept every surrender that is thrown at you but trying giving some surrenders that are more obvious than others. The reason why is because it gets you through more games, it provides fresh team mates (because the ones you just lost with may have been trollish or lost too much morale and basically waited for the 20), and it prevents TILT.

I'm really REALLY bad about not surrendering myself. I don't really care about the first two reasons I gave but the third one affects everyone harshly. People tend not to play better if that are under extreme stress or upset. This can be produced by playing a "bad" match that you are trying to turn for 30-45 minutes straight to no avail.

I would never ever recommend to "just play one more" when you're under a losing streak or just upset. It affects your game-play like a virus.


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Ezrabar

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jowabunga View Post
Is ELO really that much more important than how much fun you are or are not having?
Depends really, some people play to be competitive. Also the fun you're having can be affected my surrendering. I'm assuming most people have fun from doing well in LoL. If you can't do well and you try to do your best to do well but keep getting stomped for 30-45 minutes then I'd assume you aren't having fun. All of this depends on the person.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-08-2012

My post was completely misinterpreted.

You said you want feedback, but you don't like my negative feedback that highlights some aspects of your post on which you're completely wrong.

I didn't say you should NEVER surrender. What I said was that if you are trying to surrender at the 20 minute mark but the match ended up taking 60 minutes, you were trying to surrender a winnable game. No matter what has happened in the first 20 minutes, the game is winnable at minute 60.

By minute 60, everyone is level 18.
By minute 60, everyone is at or nearing full builds (last night, I watched Voyboy, at minute 50, with a full AP Rengar build, sell off his items and buy up an almost full AD build).
By minute 60, the death timers are so long that one good ace could easily win you the game (it's certainly enough time to go take out a couple of turrets and make it back to base).

In fact, you played for twice as long after that surrender attempt than you did before that surrender attempt. If you'd change your attitude and instead of wishing your team would surrender, think "Okay, how can we turn this around since we didn't surrender?" then you might win more games that way.

A lot of times, when people initiate a surrender, they've checked out of the game. If their teammates refuse the surrender, they just get mad, wait the 3 minutes, and offer another surrender attempt, and they'll rinse and repeat until they accept the surrender. The problem is that in this situation, you're not playing 5v5. You're playing 5v4, or 5vhowevermany because the people that want to surrender aren't trying any more.

If they'd quit worrying about surrendering and start worrying about how to make a comeback, they might win more games that way.

Again, I'm not saying you should NEVER surrender. Please, for the love of having an actual discussion, don't use that as your take away from this part of my post. Please actually read and understand. A 20 minute surrender attempt in a 60 minute match is clearly premature. If the game was definitely lost at minute 20, there's no way the match takes 60 minutes. Please, look at almost any CLG.EU match.




Next, you completely ignored my next point. The statistics you cited in your original post are horrendously inaccurate.

Quote:
Even the best, highest, most amazing players lose 55-65% of their games.

Eg: oRb LemonNation (avg wins 63%), Aphromoo (avg wins 54%), and AltecRu (avg wins 61%)
63% win rate is 37% lose rate.
54% win rate is 46% lose rate.
61% win rate is 39% lose rate.

Assuming you cited accurate win rates for those 3 players, none of them are anywhere near losing 55-65% of their games. They lose 37-46% of their games. That's a MASSIVE difference.


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vortical42

Senior Member

11-08-2012

^this.

I have no problem if you are playing a normal blind pick and you want to surrender to stop the bleeding. But if you are in a ranked match, there is no reason to surrender unless things are completely hopeless. I've seen teams that lost a tower in every lane and still win because the have a massive advantage in teamfights.

P.S. Not sure if the OP realizes, but your responses to people who have a different point of view read as very snarky and sarcastic. I'm going to assume that was not the intent, but it's something you may want to work on if you want to foster honest discussion.


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ryzeonline

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Here it is, real simple:

I posted something truly interesting, interesting enough for people to write pages in response

It is meant as an experiment, something to try, meant to help improve people's gameplay experience.

  • Try it, or dont - I don't care.
  • Hate on it, or don't - I don't care.
  • Label me as a "snarky", "sarcastic" a$$hole, I don't care.

    I've been called worse, just like the majority of those who truly make an impact in the world.

I have no dog in this fight, there's no sides to take, I offered an interesting sugggestion, that's all, hopefully you're all big boys and girls, able to decide for yourselves without having a hissy fit in the thread .

You're totally entitled to your opinion, I'm glad they're different, they keep bumping this thread to the top

Lastly, I'd love to see a Rioter weigh in here, or a member of TSM when they surrendered early this past MLG fall -- 'cause I'd bet they know the true value of surrendering.

I'm thrilled UODK and Ezrabar seem to understand the merit of my suggestion, maybe others will too.

Who knows... maybe even *you*


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Again, I'm not saying you should NEVER surrender. Please, for the love of having an actual discussion, don't use that as your take away from this part of my post. Please actually read and understand. A 20 minute surrender attempt in a 60 minute match is clearly premature. If the game was definitely lost at minute 20, there's no way the match takes 60 minutes. Please, look at almost any CLG.EU match.
Sigh.


Seriously.



"I'm not interested in talking to anyone that disagrees with me. I'm just going to see they disagree with me, tell them they're wrong, and only have a conversation with people that agree with me."

Yes, that's real forward thinking.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-09-2012

You keep referencing teams like TSM, and even Naijin Sword made someone surrender in one of the most recent tournaments.

Again, please read the next line.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE READ. I AM NOT SAYING NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!!



But I feel like you're encouraging players to easily give up on winnable matches. I'm not unaware of pro teams surrendered. But you refuse to acknowledge pro teams that refused to surrender and end up making a comeback.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGS3HkoBmes
Check out this match. It's CLG.eu versus Moscow 5.

At the 20 minute mark, the earliest possible surrender time, CLG.eu is down about 3k gold. It's not that bad though, they're down 2 kills, but up one turret.

As we approach the 30 minute mark, CLG.eu is down 9k+ gold. They're even on turrets, but they're also looking at a 3 kills to 9 kills score line.

Go forward another ten minutes to the 40 minute mark. CLG.eu didn't make any improvements. They're actually behind by about 18k gold here. They still only have 3 turrets killed, while Moscow 5 has 6 killed now, and the kills are 4 for CLG.eu to 12 for M5.

Go forward another ten minutes to the 50 minute mark. The match STILL doesn't look good for CLG.eu. They're now down 23k gold, they improved turret score to 4-6, but kill score is 5-14.

But there's something important to notice at this 50 minute mark. Everyone on M5 has completed their builds except their support Nunu. Meanwhile, the only person on CLG.eu that has a complete build is Froggen's Anivia. M5 is reaching their power peak, while CLG.eu still has a lot of room to go.

So let's look forward another ten minutes, at the 60 minute mark. Look. CLG.eu has evened out the turrets, they've improved the kills score to 10-16. They're still down 24k gold, but M5 earned a lot of gold in the past 10 minutes that they simply can't spend. All they can buy are elixirs. CLG.eu still has a lot of incomplete builds.

Now, if you let it roll foward a few minutes, CLG.eu scores an ace and finishes the game the out.

Again, there's something important to remember about the League. At a certain point (level 18), champions stop gaining experience and the losing team starts catching up. At a certain point (full build), gold earned on champions is put to no use, and the losing team starts catching up.

These aren't guaranteed paths to victory. The losing team does need to defend inhibitors and survive team fights in order to have a chance, but that late in the game, all it takes is once good ace. Moscow 5 was in complete control of that match all game long.

Now, CLG.eu may not have looked in that much trouble to you, but there are people I've been queued with who'd be perfectly content surrendering CLG.eu's side of the match at the 30, 40, and 50 minute marks of that match. All it would take is losing one team fight (losing 2 and getting 0 or worse), and people would be ready to surrender.

Yet it'd clearly be a mistake to surrender. CLG.eu ended up winning this match.


AGAIN PLEASE READ THIS LINE. I AM NOT SAYING NEVER SURRENDER.

What I am saying is you should be very careful in encouraging people to surrender. People who play League are already to quick to vote surrender.