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thornmail, and why is really sucks

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67chrome

Senior Member

11-09-2012

O_O

The amount of trouble some of you must have against carries if you think thornmail is the only way to shut them down. You can like, CC a carry and watch them explode in a team fight. In 3s there are only 2 champions that can even attempt to peel for them. Also, bruisers and assassins are sometimes referred to as "Anti-Carries" because they can dive through the middle of a 5 man team and kill the carry. We're talking about a map with 3 man teams here.

As far as thornmail itself is concerned it's stronger in shorter games and more specific line-ups. In Summoner's Rift carries often have the time to farm up a Bloodthirster, Last Whisper, and Mercury Treads before even encountering a player with Thornmail, and even if you get thornmail you could get annihilated by the AP carry instead. Which is generally why it's considered bad, because unlike Frozen Heart or Randuin's Omen you might not even tag the carry with the passive at all.

Basically, the reasons thornmail is unusually strong in 3s is:
Thornmail returns damage before it's mitigated by armor - if you have 100 AD it will deal 30 damage to you (assuming you didn't critically strike), regardless of how much armor mitigates the damage you deal. This makes thornmail stronger the more armor you have.
Magic Resistance reduces damage by a percentage, not a flat value, so no amount of magic resistance will effectively negate the damage return.
To get 30% life steal to counter 30% returned damage with this, you need to raise your effective magic resistance to the same level as the opponent's armor.
You need sizable chunks of Magic Resistance, Life Steal, and Armor Penetration to prevent thornmail from reflecting your damage back to you.
In fast-passed modes like Dominion and the new Twisted Treelines that have minimal creep reliance for gold and a heavier reliance on ganks and duels for potential income the winning team will largely be decided before you can pick up the 3 items you need to deal with thornmail.

Basically, Thornmail is balanced around the flow of Summoner's Rift, not Twisted Treelines. Thornmail is amazing atm in 3s, it's unusually powerful in Dominion as well. It's essentially a free win in vs. AD duels, especially against auto-attack reliant champions.


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Darkomantis

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
67chrome:
O_O

The amount of trouble some of you must have against carries if you think thornmail is the only way to shut them down. You can like, CC a carry and watch them explode in a team fight. In 3s there are only 2 champions that can even attempt to peel for them. Also, bruisers and assassins are sometimes referred to as "Anti-Carries" because they can dive through the middle of a 5 man team and kill the carry. We're talking about a map with 3 man teams here.

As far as thornmail itself is concerned it's stronger in shorter games and more specific line-ups. In Summoner's Rift carries often have the time to farm up a Bloodthirster, Last Whisper, and Mercury Treads before even encountering a player with Thornmail, and even if you get thornmail you could get annihilated by the AP carry instead. Which is generally why it's considered bad, because unlike Frozen Heart or Randuin's Omen you might not even tag the carry with the passive at all.

Basically, the reasons thornmail is unusually strong in 3s is:
Thornmail returns damage before it's mitigated by armor - if you have 100 AD it will deal 30 damage to you (assuming you didn't critically strike), regardless of how much armor mitigates the damage you deal. This makes thornmail stronger the more armor you have.
Magic Resistance reduces damage by a percentage, not a flat value, so no amount of magic resistance will effectively negate the damage return.
To get 30% life steal to counter 30% returned damage with this, you need to raise your effective magic resistance to the same level as the opponent's armor.
You need sizable chunks of Magic Resistance, Life Steal, and Armor Penetration to prevent thornmail from reflecting your damage back to you.
In fast-passed modes like Dominion and the new Twisted Treelines that have minimal creep reliance for gold and a heavier reliance on ganks and duels for potential income the winning team will largely be decided before you can pick up the 3 items you need to deal with thornmail.

Basically, Thornmail is balanced around the flow of Summoner's Rift, not Twisted Treelines. Thornmail is amazing atm in 3s, it's unusually powerful in Dominion as well. It's essentially a free win in vs. AD duels, especially against auto-attack reliant champions.

This. It's a bit annoying when a Rammus rushes Thornmail and Sunfire Cape and proceed to taunt the ADC and cause him to self-destruct...


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Iliketurtle

Senior Member

11-11-2012

its poopy sadly needs damage reduction even more


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doombotMECHA

Senior Member

11-11-2012

thnx nome
any chance that we could see a less powerful version of thornmail on TT, with like 10% or even 5% instead of 30% return?


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Noirdua

Junior Member

12-28-2012

Quote:
drlordsir13:
Not sure if this has been brought up at all, but I figured it couldn't hurt. Thornmail is the bane of all ad champs, late game it is nearly impossible to counter an opponent with thorn mail without a gank. In five vs five, you can have a support and an ap caster help you and neutralize whoever has it. But, in three vs three, when you are expected to have to solo someone, at least for long enough for your teammates to get there, it is nearly impossible to do anything. I am mainly concerned with master yi and darius, but it really affects all ad champs. for an example, as master yi playing against garen, he built very tanky and eventually got thornmail. He wasn't fed or anything, but even without his abilities, just with basic attack he was able to kill me, due to the fact that thormail took more than three quarters of my health, as I was the main damage dealer for my team, eventually garen was able to solo my whole team and win the game, I think thornmail should be either weakened for three v three, or banned altogether, as any champ who gets it is instantly invincible to any ad champ, and as it's unlikely that two ap champs will be playing in 3v3, it will make it nearly impossible for a win against them


If your going to ban thornmail then you ought to ban Sion because he is OP without a counter item.


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Iliketurtle

Senior Member

12-29-2012

n
e
E
Ds a buff


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A Sproutling

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
RiotNome:
It's being removed for a few reasons.
1. It scales with your opponent's strength, not your own.
2. The gold necessary to counter it (on 3's anyway) far outweighs the investment to buy it.
3. It doesn't introduce any gameplay.


Honestly I don't agree with any of those points. Let's get rid of Abyssal Scepter then, as you're not "actively countering" someone who's bought MR, as it's just a passive. Follow that up with Aegis, that's not active either.

"There's no gameplay involved." That doesn't make sense to me at all. The "gameplay" that comes into effect with Thornmail is allowing your opponent to hit you so they take damage, as well as yourself. That's incredibly risky gameplay to me. Someone's snowballing, you need to counter them. With the AS slow active from Randuin's gone it's pretty much impossible to counter someone like Trynd, as your carry like Brand or someone surely isn't going to build that. You're only hope is FH and that can't cut it all on it's own.

You shouldn't have to prioritize all of your items around a single champion, either. At least with Thornmail you could keep Trynd at bay for a second.

These reasonings don't make sense to me. At all.

If they really wanted to couldn't they at least make it an active item? I haven't heard anything about a new item for TT that's similar to Thorn. But that would be excellent. It wasn't like buying Thornmail was an auto win, anyway.

Riot just doesn't get it, I guess.


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A Sproutling

Senior Member

12-29-2012

Quote:
Darkomantis:
This. It's a bit annoying when a Rammus rushes Thornmail and Sunfire Cape and proceed to taunt the ADC and cause him to self-destruct...

Then get a qss.


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SLayerOfNOOB

Senior Member

12-30-2012

Quote:
RiotNome:
I actually have no issue with this. It adds clear counterplay, an active skill/timing-based component, and has high visibility. But to answer you question, no; there is no plan (for TT at least) to include this item, as I don't think it's necessary.


I have an issue with that. It would be just like a DOTA item - specifically 'blade mail'. Big reason i dont play DOTA is i dont like having half my items be active use dependant. I like 2 actives at the most, with the other items providing passive buffs. If i wanted to have half my keyboard bound to spells and items i would go back to WOW.