An Armor / Attack Speed Item

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Warbane

Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethern View Post
I don't think there's a need for an item that necessarily has both of them. Both armor and AS are available without having useless stats on it.
The same can be said about using Sheen on dps champs that have no mana costs hardly
Its not necessary but people get it for the alternative effects, and more items is ALWAYS a good thing, in my eyes.


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Gacoa

Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbane View Post
Why not make an item that builds from recurve bow and a chainvest, call it Templar's Ballista.
recipe - 660 gold +50%aspd + 55 armor
"Unique passive - Every time you get hit with a basic attack increase your attack speed by 10 percent, stacks up to 4 times."
armor and attack speed, 2 stats that shouldn't go together imagine on an adc.. the point of an adc is to kite and dish out damage without being touched, it just takes out the skill if they are intentionally trying to get hit by other carries for the attack speed buff while not being punished for it with the high armor
seems like an awful idea


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Warbane

Member

11-06-2012

Its not for ADC unless its needed, but it would benefit characters like udyr and any jungler that wants to build defensively and have a higher attack speed, im not suggesting a game changing item just an option to counter heavy AD, which doesnt exist for ADC at a basic level.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Firstly "Wtf people responded."

Secondly "Wtf XYPHEROUS responded." O.O

Moving on.
Afterthought - I don't mean to sound argumentative, I just enjoy discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
AS/AR is kind of a niche item primarily for bruisers who can autoattack. There isn't a whole lot of classes that would actually like such a stat.

So essentially, you'd be making an item for Lee Sin/Udyr/Shyv/Irelia - which immediately jumps at the question of 'Do they actually need this item?'

Currently, I'm at the opinion that while yes, there is a void here - it's probably an okay void to have unless we're somehow trying to make early armor viable on AD carries.

That said, in the jungle, attack speed / armor is really appealing on pretty much everyone who jungles - So if an item were to be made along these stat lines, the large bulk of the item's gold value would probably go towards being jungle-related to help autoattack bruisers transition better into the mid / late game, rather than a lane dominance item with AS/AR.
Fair.

However, in terms of champions that might find use for it, I'd add in Xin Zhao, Shen, Tryndamere, and Gangplank. While the last two are "AD Carries", they are melee who lack the attack speed Steroid that almost every other Carry receives. As a foreseeable rebuttal, we as the playerbase have no idea what is planned for the neglected melee carries. (I certainly never foresaw a Red visiting here, I tend to make these for fun.)

Hell, even Darius would benefit from this selection. I can see the concern regarding the item itself being an issue in lane dominance, however.

Thematically, it's an item for when you need the armor but want the offense - A little bit like Hexdrinker when you want the magic resist but still need a little oomph. While we arguably have this in the form of Wriggles Lantern, some champions scale better on Attack Speed than they do AD, as well as sustaining per-attack than damage.

Similarly , however, I would view such an item being bought for the early-mid game, and then sold later (or in Hexdrinker's case, upgraded), as gold comes in and other items become available (Because no meager amount of attack speed is worth keeping when Randiun's needs the slot)


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thehoevan

Member

11-06-2012

I enjoy niche items because they can be bought just for fun on some champions, and I hope that the red posts don't foreshadow the complete removal of these "niche items" because I enjoy a lot of them partially for the novelty and creativeness of their concepts, and partially for the stats.

In the case of Ionic Spark, I find the tiny bit of extra burst from a proc can be neat and useful; occasionally catching an enemy off guard or securing a kill, and health and attack speed can sometimes be just what I needed (to quote Journey,) regardless of what the pros do or what the majority of the population does.

I believe that niche items are a part of what makes me enjoy LoL, and also believe that if a playerwant to do an unconventional build (such as on-hit-effect) and have the skill to make up for the fact that he/she isn't buying the most statistically efficient items, then they should be allowed to do so.

As for whether an item only seems good or is actually good, I'll leave that up to calculators and the pros. More item choice ultimately means players have to be more skilled and intelligent when picking the right items for the situation, and players should have the freedom to choose their items without Riot removing every item that doesn't end up being the best statistically.

I'm thehoevan, and I approve this message.


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Diablo48

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
...
Ionic Spark, however, is not a good niche item to have, mostly because it looks like a good item. It feels like a good item. And then 95% of the time, you're doing it wrong if you buy it.
Have you ever considered adding a third tier upgrade to Ionic Spark to make it something of an AD carry equivalent to Rod of Ages? With about 500 HP and attack speed comparable to Phantom Dancer it seems to me like it should be a viable alternative to let AD carries splash a bit of durability into their builds early without totally destroying their ability to do damage like what you would get from building a full tank item. This would give it a real roll while improving AD carry itemization and still leave it as a possibility on some bruisers.

I did some number crunching a while back on this and some other items to offer additional options to help carries protect themselves from the most pressing threats in a particular game which would also work well on some bruisers who want to mix in some more offensive stats, although my focus was really on the carries. They are not necessarily the most streamlined items, but they should open up more options for itemization by offering ways out of defensive items bought to survive the early game or allowing bruisers to get a little bit of everything in a primarily defensive build. The full stats are in the thread below.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2529702


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

11-06-2012

AP and AD carries function differently, and AP itemization makes them tankier because they tend to have easily exploited windows of vulnerability outside of what an enemy can do them. (Cooldowns). This weakness doesn't exist on AD carries who will always be doing optimal damage through auto attacks, and so they are reimbursed by having a better chance to survive. Defensive stats flow naturally into the builds for mages, Fighters, supports, and tanks. An AD Carry (Which is the most late-gamey champion archetype) must go out of their way to secure defenses.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'd rather not. MBR is trying to do too many things at once to be good. A raw buff doesn't help when it's main difficulty is it has both too many stats and also can't be cheap because then it competes with Wriggle's. While it's probably a very good idea to have an item compete with Wriggle's lantern - it probably doesn't actually help all that much to be in the exact same line as Wriggle's.

MBR's main problem is that it effectively kills itself due to always being sub-optimal in some regard, no matter who builds it - outside of Warwick, I suppose. You could raw buff it until the sub-optimality parts go away by sheer virtue of being overpowered but I don't think you've solved anything there - you've just kind of made it outshine a bunch of other items, unfortunately because it's still not performing a new niche, just three old ones sub-optimally.
So, you're saying it's not possible to remove Pickaxe and lower MBR's cost accordingly because of Wriggle's...

:/


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Diablo48

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea De Penserhir View Post
AP and AD carries function differently, and AP itemization makes them tankier because they tend to have easily exploited windows of vulnerability outside of what an enemy can do them. (Cooldowns). This weakness doesn't exist on AD carries who will always be doing optimal damage through auto attacks, and so they are reimbursed by having a better chance to survive. Defensive stats flow naturally into the builds for mages, Fighters, supports, and tanks. An AD Carry (Which is the most late-gamey champion archetype) must go out of their way to secure defenses.
This would be far from a free or natural defensive boost. In the example with Ionic Spark, the item I proposed compares poorly to Phantom Dancer in a purely offensive build. You sacrifice 350 gold, 20% crit rate, and the movement speed boost to pick up 500 hp and a very slightly upgraded Ionic Spark proc which is not going to make up for the lost damage.

What this would be is a way for AD Carries to add some health early if they need the extra defense to survive in lane without totally destroying their offenses down the line and thus a break from every ADC getting the same four items every game. This specific case with the Ionic Spark upgrade would also change the optimal build paths for later items by leaving you with a lot of attack speed and not much else so Bloodthirster might be a better second buy than Infinity.


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goguy345

Junior Member

11-07-2012

Speaking as a someone who mains attack speed junglers, i would love an as/ar item because i always find myself sitting on a recurve bow all game when the enemy team doesnt have enough magic damage to warrant finishing off my wits end. This is especially true after reading about how ionic spark isnt necessarily a good alternative in those situations.