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Zed vs Talon

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Darlig Ulv

Senior Member

11-04-2012

So I'm a big Talon fan.

I ran numbers on Talon and Zed. They both have pretty much the same defensive stats, so this is an offensive comparison only.

The Situation
These are made assuming the ideal situation/combo for both champs. They are both level 18 with 100 Bonus AD, and a single Auto Attack in their burst. Ignite was not used, as I don't know if it counts for Zed's R.


I feel this is a fair enough comparison because their roles and builds strike me as very similar.

I am NOT saying Zed is "just Talon 2.0" or anything along those lines. Their kits are different enough that player skill could vary their play immensely. I do however feel, that there is such a thing as "better at this job"

(For example: While Singed and Volibear are different, I feel that in most cases Singed is a better candidate for most everything you'd want a Voli for... save Jungling.)



Here we go:
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ZED
AA: 210 + 8% (avg life at 2200 = 176) = 386 (half is 193)
Q: 330 + 165 = 495 (Half is 248)
W: N/A
E: 180 + 90 = 270 ( half is 135)
R: 110 + 100 = 210

So total: 1361(initial) + 680(after R Mark proc) = 2041

Zed has 2 tactical blinks (via W and R), a Slow, and a Blink/Untargetable (Not sure if his ult works as a "blink&quot in his kit.
Zed uses Energy.

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TALON

AA: 225 (With Passive)
Q: 207 + 210 = 417
W: 437
E: N/A
R: 805

Total: 1884

Talon offers a Silence/blink, a Slow and has Tactical invisibility in his Kit.
Talon works off of Mana.
Talon's Ult is AOE (It will not do 805 to everyone, that number is enhanced by 15% via E's)


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On Average a ADC have around 1800 - 1900 HP without HP enhancing items.





So, after seeing the numbers comparison, while not dramatic... it is very close to the difference between bursting an ADC and having them survive.

What do you guys think about this? Does Talon's kit compensate for the damage difference?

Or...is there no longer any reason to pick Talon over Zed?


tl;dr: Riot buff Talon pls (jk)


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Chris Walken

Junior Member

11-04-2012

Talon is widely considered underpowered, so this doesn't surprise me in the least bit. Talon does have two escapes as well as a way to initiate and invisibility, though, so he functions very differently from Zed who I view as a pure assassin like akali who sticks to one target and annihilates them.


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Zauv

Member

11-04-2012

Zed's R doesn't do damage, it just calculates the damage done pre-mitigation and applies 50% of that. Zed also needs his two shadows to perform its maximum output, thus sacrificing his mobility and any escapes. Talon does not, Talon can actually perform better do the silence and tactical stealth.


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DarkTundras

Member

11-04-2012

I aggree with Gyn, Talon is more of a pick ppl off champion. knowing who to silence, who to proc passive on, and his ult lets him sneak to his desired target


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Darlig Ulv

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Zauvirr:
Zed's R doesn't do damage, it just calculates the damage done pre-mitigation and applies 50% of that. Zed also needs his two shadows to perform its maximum output, thus sacrificing his mobility and any escapes. Talon does not, Talon can actually perform better do the silence and tactical stealth.


Zed's R does do damage = to his total AD.


Talon often has to go all in. His initiate/silence is a 15% damage increase. Without that the damage total drops significantly. I don't see how Talon doesn't have to commit, whereas Zed does.


In this example I only calculated damage with 1 Shadow for Zed.


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Darlig Ulv

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
GynacologyMajor:
Talon is widely considered underpowered, so this doesn't surprise me in the least bit. Talon does have two escapes as well as a way to initiate and invisibility, though, so he functions very differently from Zed who I view as a pure assassin like akali who sticks to one target and annihilates them.


I'm surprised to hear this is how it's viewed. Since Cutthroat is only usable on enemies and the clone can be sent anywhere it's flexibility is higher...and while the clone adds to Zed's offense, so does Talons (in a 15% kinda way).


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HerbaNoctis

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
GynacologyMajor:
Talon is widely considered underpowered, so this doesn't surprise me in the least bit. Talon does have two escapes as well as a way to initiate and invisibility, though, so he functions very differently from Zed who I view as a pure assassin like akali who sticks to one target and annihilates them.


Akali has penta potential by just diving every squishy in sight. Zed doesn't. He picks one person, ****s them up within a couple seconds, and then is done.


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Least Pro Lee NA

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Zauvirr:
Zed's R doesn't do damage, it just calculates the damage done pre-mitigation and applies 50% of that. Zed also needs his two shadows to perform its maximum output, thus sacrificing his mobility and any escapes. Talon does not, Talon can actually perform better do the silence and tactical stealth.


Not really true. Using both your shadows at once is a waste as his E can only do damage once and his Q's damage is reduced by 50% for every other Q that landed before it meaning that the third only does 25% of the first. So zed can kill his target while still having an ace up his sleeve if he needs to escape.


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Darlig Ulv

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
HerbaNoctis:
Akali has penta potential by just diving every squishy in sight. Zed doesn't. He picks one person, ****s them up within a couple seconds, and then is done.

That's a good point actually... Aren't assassins who are single target (without any refreshing abilities) typically bad in higher elo?

I'm thinking like LeBlanc. Most other "assassins" have CD refreshing, or low CD on their key abilities. (Kat, Khazix, Kassadin, Irelia etc)

Zed has CDR for his W in his E. But it's conditional on number of enemies hit--And the base cooldown itself is fairly high for his "core" mechanic.


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Kuwanger

Senior Member

12-30-2012

zed ults someone they just flash and he cant reach them, talon E someone they silenced for the 1 second he does his burst then he stealth away, zed is too slow and his W too short range which is why he needs reworking if you ask me


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