@ RIOT why do champion reworks take longer than making a new champ?

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N49

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
One can hope...
If you take away her High-heels, I'm requesting a refund.

And it would be a shame, since I got the release double-bundle on account of how awesome she was.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

11-04-2012
7 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogdor87 View Post
Hey IronStylus, Right now I'm doing low and high poly modeling in college and I have a question. How high are the poly count limits for the champions Riot releases now compared to what it did say just before season 1 and with what champion did the poly limit start to rise?

As well, what programs do your artists use for modeling the champions (Zbrush, 3DS Max, Maya, Mudbox)?

I think if I'm going to get better at 3D modeling it would be good to set goals for myself to get characters at those kind of limits or lower and practice with different modeling programs.
Well, I'm a complete 3D bafoon so I'll only be able to say that I have no idea about limits. All I know is that, yes, polys started to rise at some point.. but.. uh.. yeah. Grumpy Monkey may be able to field this question. Also, our Lead Character artist should be getting on here pretty soon to answer such questions. He's in the processes of redification.

As for programs, we use the standards like Zbrush, Maya and Mudbox. We recently do a lot of high-rez sculpts that are later turned into the low-rez model.


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Queso Queen

Senior Member

11-04-2012

*shoves ironstylus in closet with a box of crackers*

-_- chirpy little bird so happy about the extra hour....

where is that bloody darn cat, here kitty kitty kitty....

*a few hours later*
Nidalee Cat sitting outside closet door, one red feather sticking out of her mouth.

>_> some of us arn't as happy having to work that extra hour, my mentality lost it when I had to see the clock repeat the1-2 process. It also didn't help I had to change the time on the Hotels clocks early so that way people got up on time. My brain...Where is Dr Who when you need him?

*hears squak*


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Llann

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Great posts this fine evening, gentle sir parrot.

Art talk is cool. =)


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JohntheMage

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Thanks for covering the visual aspects! On the other hand though; what about gameplay reworks?

(Thinking about Heimerdinger here; who sorely needs some sort of buff or rework)


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Kanamoto

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Well, I'm a complete 3D bafoon so I'll only be able to say that I have no idea about limits. All I know is that, yes, polys started to rise at some point.. but.. uh.. yeah. Grumpy Monkey may be able to field this question. Also, our Lead Character artist should be getting on here pretty soon to answer such questions. He's in the processes of redification.

As for programs, we use the standards like Zbrush, Maya and Mudbox. We recently do a lot of high-rez sculpts that are later turned into the low-rez model.
Feeling like high-res sculptures could be really cool to see D;


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Jack Anansi

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
So, if we're talking about visual reworks, it can take a while. Despite the character being already established, the in-game asset is completely different. This breaks down into these resources needed:

Concept
3D modelling
Texture
Rigging
Animation
VFX

So, that's pretty standard for any champion, original or rework. A new champion currently has 1 skin it releases with. A reworked champion can have a lot, take Ashe or TF for example. So, in the case of Ashe, let's say, that's five skins plus base. Despite two of her skins being essentially recolors, that's still 3 others that need new models, new textures plus custom rigging and animation support to flesh them out. Remember, no original rig remains. That's a really big deal if you know anything about animation. If you don't. trust me, it's a big deal. Depending on those skins, that might be several different sets of particle effects, again, depending on complexity.

If we're doing a severe overhaul like we did with Soraka, that's pretty much taking on a brand new champion because we've brought in the other disciplines such as creative to work on new VO and other story elements. Also, since the old Soraka was appropriately disposed of in a back alley never to be heard from again, that required a brand new concept of her which required the standard amount of scrutiny and sign-off.

Twisted Fate was another such situation. Pretty much a reboot in a lot of ways.

On top of all that, add to the fact that it is our mission in these cases to retain the iconicism of a character beloved by millions and increase it's fidelity and consistency across the board. That's a pretty hefty job. With an existing champion you have a huge open sandbox. With a rework you have a framework that you must preserve. It's like reconstructing a historic landmark.

Just the other day I joined the relaunch team. It's something I plan on talking about more extensively in a couple of weeks. We're currently a pretty small team with not a ton of resources compared to Champion and Skins. But we've got a huge responsibility. I volunteered to be the dedicated concept artist for the team because we were lacking such a resource and right now I feel it's the best use of my time. I want to be able to take what everyone knows and loves about the champions on our list and be able to bring them up to the standard we now have with our current champions, but also to take some of that consistency we apply to our reworks, apply that to current champions and project that to future champion development.

By reworking the past we therefore improve the future. When we make the present consistent, we improve the past. Sort of Orwellian now that I think about it...
I know that "s3 will address melee carries" such as Yi, but will he also be getting a model makeover? He still has Nidalee-feet (except on Headhunter Yi).


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ShadowIWolf

Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
So, if we're talking about visual reworks, it can take a while. Despite the character being already established, the in-game asset is completely different. This breaks down into these resources needed:

Concept
3D modelling
Texture
Rigging
Animation
VFX

So, that's pretty standard for any champion, original or rework. A new champion currently has 1 skin it releases with. A reworked champion can have a lot, take Ashe or TF for example. So, in the case of Ashe, let's say, that's five skins plus base. Despite two of her skins being essentially recolors, that's still 3 others that need new models, new textures plus custom rigging and animation support to flesh them out. Remember, no original rig remains. That's a really big deal if you know anything about animation. If you don't. trust me, it's a big deal. Depending on those skins, that might be several different sets of particle effects, again, depending on complexity.

If we're doing a severe overhaul like we did with Soraka, that's pretty much taking on a brand new champion because we've brought in the other disciplines such as creative to work on new VO and other story elements. Also, since the old Soraka was appropriately disposed of in a back alley never to be heard from again, that required a brand new concept of her which required the standard amount of scrutiny and sign-off.

Twisted Fate was another such situation. Pretty much a reboot in a lot of ways.

On top of all that, add to the fact that it is our mission in these cases to retain the iconicism of a character beloved by millions and increase it's fidelity and consistency across the board. That's a pretty hefty job. With an existing champion you have a huge open sandbox. With a rework you have a framework that you must preserve. It's like reconstructing a historic landmark.

Just the other day I joined the relaunch team. It's something I plan on talking about more extensively in a couple of weeks. We're currently a pretty small team with not a ton of resources compared to Champion and Skins. But we've got a huge responsibility. I volunteered to be the dedicated concept artist for the team because we were lacking such a resource and right now I feel it's the best use of my time. I want to be able to take what everyone knows and loves about the champions on our list and be able to bring them up to the standard we now have with our current champions, but also to take some of that consistency we apply to our reworks, apply that to current champions and project that to future champion development.

By reworking the past we therefore improve the future. When we make the present consistent, we improve the past. Sort of Orwellian now that I think about it...

There's something I've been wondering. I basically remember a few ways ways to make/edit edit a champion:

-Creation of a new champion (The obvious one, usually arriving with two skins)

-A new skin: Sometimes is just a new skine with the same animations, others are skins with new details (like with Iron Solari Leona and how some animations are a bit different when she uses her techniques) or with many different details (like Pulsefire Ezreal).

-A new splash art (which recently happened with Vladimir, Kassadin and Galio).

-An adjustment in a few details (I remember a comment about Leona's heels, so I think that would be a small adjustment when compared to a whole visual remake).

-A visual remake (Soraka and Twisted Fate are the latest).

So my questions about these different ways are:

-This is kind of an obvious question but... which of these options do you find it easier to work on?

-Do the same team works with all these different ways to create/improve a champion?

-By taking the comment of the visual overhaul/new champion comparison (where it was said that the rework on a champion is similar to creating a new one), does this mean that creating a new champion (like Zed) is easier than giving another champion a complete visual remake?

-And finally, considering the fact that there's a lot to work on when it comes to creating a new champion or remaking one, and taking into mind that Zed its on its way and I also heard something about a new support champion (who apparently can't wear shoes), does this means that champions who need a visual remake will have to wait, or can the team also work on a remake while bringing a new champion?

Anyway, I apologize for so many questions, but that's pretty much curiosity at work. ^_^;;


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JaceBelerenXIII

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Junior Member

11-04-2012

When I think rework, I lean more to the gameplay aspect. Like what needs to be done or should we just start from scratch. A big thing Riot has to consider is fans of the champ already. I was just discussing Karma with a friend of mine and, even though i love her, i do think she needs a rework. His stance was different because, like so many other people, he liked Kat the way she was. Same with Eve. You have to take in consideration the people that already play these champs.


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ChesswarF

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Complicated subject.
When shown Sand Champion?


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