Ashe and an early brutaliser

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General Sassycat

Senior Member

11-03-2012

As a side point before i get started, Going DFG as a first item was always stupid as a default option, and now its been made pretty much completely nonviable early game. Suck it.

OT: I get bored pretty easily on ad carries mainly because of the whole farm-for-thirty-minutes-then-start-playing-the-game thing. I just felt i never really had an impact on anything throughout the entire game. So i started building brutaliser/ roam boots ashe.

I picked roam boots because it made positioning easier. I could sit way outside a fight and be there quickly once the initiation had been done. I also found that if i stomped and shoved my lane i couldn't do anything safely, and roam boots allowed me to go gank lanes which was easy with max q. However i don't expect many people to agree this is a good trade off against other option so I'll just let my reasoning sit here.

Now brutaliser. First reason was that starting off longsword potion instead of dorans was trading of 3% lifesteal for 50 more health, which i thought was worth it. Plus with Ashe's super strong early game it seemed pretty easy to get the advantage necessary to make brutaliser a viable option, which could then be used to stretch the advantage. The CDR and arm pen seemed great in fights (especially when the enemy botlane had something like taric/sona). Against top laners and jungler i didn't feel so week anymore (i could do decent damage) which made dragon fights go better. The only problem was that it required a lane advantage to work. Because I'm not such a great adc i've had the displeasure of seeing how it goes when i play badly.

So i want to know what people's opinion on this are, thanks. ^.^


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Ashe has a 'super strong early game'? Are we playing the same game?

Early brutalizer is kinda nice but for relatively little more you've got the B.F. Sword. Yeah, there's no build path to the BF but it builds into your two main ADC damage options whereas Brut only goes into Youmuu's which is a generally meh item. You are sacrificing time and gold for a fairly meh early game advantage here. You need to parley that advantage into making up for the gold that you WILL lose on selling itor there was zero point in buying it in the first place. The same thing can be said of the boots of mobility which you are about 100% likely to replace late game with Zerks or Mercs. And if you've pushed the lane that much with no repercussions you always have the option of doing a bit of jungle work - take the double golems on blue side or perhaps backtrack to wolves on purple. Ashe might be a pretty good ganker with her ultimate and frost shot but you've only got one lane to gank from your standard position and if you can constantly gank mid so can your jungler. The only way I'd consider this viable is if jungle needs to babysit top and mid is getting shoved arround too.


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General Sassycat

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus Crow View Post
Ashe has a 'super strong early game'? Are we playing the same game?

Early brutalizer is kinda nice but for relatively little more you've got the B.F. Sword. Yeah, there's no build path to the BF but it builds into your two main ADC damage options whereas Brut only goes into Youmuu's which is a generally meh item. You are sacrificing time and gold for a fairly meh early game advantage here. You need to parley that advantage into making up for the gold that you WILL lose on selling itor there was zero point in buying it in the first place. The same thing can be said of the boots of mobility which you are about 100% likely to replace late game with Zerks or Mercs. And if you've pushed the lane that much with no repercussions you always have the option of doing a bit of jungle work - take the double golems on blue side or perhaps backtrack to wolves on purple. Ashe might be a pretty good ganker with her ultimate and frost shot but you've only got one lane to gank from your standard position and if you can constantly gank mid so can your jungler. The only way I'd consider this viable is if jungle needs to babysit top and mid is getting shoved arround too.
That is exactly WHY i go but. Straight BF would be better but it has no build path so you are basically weak as **** for most of early laning phase. Besides you are going brutaliser INSTEAD of dornas. 2 dorans is 975, so for 362 extra gold you get 5 more ad, lose 6 lifetsteal, get 10%cdr and 15 arm pen (i don't really care for the health as this whole thing doesn't work against burst comps). The extra 362 is why you need the advantage.
Late game team fights are where roam boots shines the most, no use selling it then.
Yeah i could do jungle... or i could use my roam boots to get an extra kill on mid.

Thanks for your opinion though although the fact that my playstyle is so retarded may make this seem a lot worse than it is to other people xD.


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Gster

Senior Member

11-03-2012

1. Starting with Doran on ad carries isn't a great choice. Your trading MS (for securing kills or escaping ganks) and 3 potions (450 additional health,600 if you wait for 4th potion) for 10 AD, 80 health and 3% life steal. Doesn't sounds like a great choice...why? I'll take the 450 Additional hp over 80 anyday. The 6% lifesteal (3% from doran + 3% from mastery) isn't really noticeable early game. For an example, Let's say you have 100 damage for simplicity sake, you are only getting 6 hp per AA. (Longsword= 10dmg+150 additional health...No)

2. AD carries are suppose to farm because they are item dependent. Roaming with AD carries is just going to make you lose tons of gold if it isn't sucessful.

3. I hope your not maxing out your Q first. I don't know how your going to win trade without it.

4. Ashe does not have a "great" early game. Her initiate combo (Crit+W+AA) might do a lot but that is about it. You can't crit anymore because you need to farm. For your Crit % to reach anywhere near above 50, it will take ~30 seconds of not farming at all. Of course you can farm with your W however, your sacrificing MP + possible CC or damage to help stop ganks or win trades. (CD is long early levels)

If you are getting bored of farming, go play jungle. Less farming, more ganking.

\\

EDIT: Getting straight BF sword while your not fed or ahead will make you lose trades to a ad carry with 2 Doran+vamp.

EDIT2: Brutalizer...25AD, 10% CDR, 15 AR Pen. 1337g
2x Doran's Blade, Vamp... 20 AD, 160 HP, 16% lifesteal 1400g
Sustain>Bit more Damage.


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General Sassycat

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gster View Post
1. Starting with Doran on ad carries isn't a great choice. Your trading MS (for securing kills or escaping ganks) and 3 potions (450 additional health,600 if you wait for 4th potion) for 10 AD, 80 health and 3% life steal. Doesn't sounds like a great choice...why? I'll take the 450 Additional hp over 80 anyday. The 6% lifesteal (3% from doran + 3% from mastery) isn't really noticeable early game. For an example, Let's say you have 100 damage for simplicity sake, you are only getting 6 hp per AA. (Longsword= 10dmg+150 additional health...No)

2. AD carries are suppose to farm because they are item dependent. Roaming with AD carries is just going to make you lose tons of gold if it isn't sucessful.

3. I hope your not maxing out your Q first. I don't know how your going to win trade without it.

4. Ashe does not have a "great" early game. Her initiate combo (Crit+W+AA) might do a lot but that is about it. You can't crit anymore because you need to farm. For your Crit % to reach anywhere near above 50, it will take ~30 seconds of not farming at all. Of course you can farm with your W however, your sacrificing MP + possible CC or damage to help stop ganks or win trades. (CD is long early levels)

If you are getting bored of farming, go play jungle. Less farming, more ganking.

\\

EDIT: Getting straight BF sword while your not fed or ahead will make you lose trades to a ad carry with 2 Doran+vamp.

EDIT2: Brutalizer...25AD, 10% CDR, 15 AR Pen. 1337g
2x Doran's Blade, Vamp... 20 AD, 160 HP, 16% lifesteal 1400g
Sustain>Bit more Damage.
1. I know that boots is the best choice but i kinda don't care when i do 3/4s someone's health as opposed to half with the 10 ad difference, and because Ashe's level one is amazing and im building brut i prefer the +50 hp over the 6 hp per hit.
2. Not if you have an advantage, which is the only thing that makes this viable.
3. Yes i am. If you have the advantage your main priority is locking down targets because you automatically have more damage than they do.
4. Yeah i meant great level one. My bad.

I don't want to jungle. I want to AD.


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gster View Post
EDIT2: Brutalizer...25AD, 10% CDR, 15 AR Pen. 1337g
2x Doran's Blade, Vamp... 20 AD, 160 HP, 16% lifesteal 1400g
Sustain>Bit more Damage.
This all day. I should note that I typically wait it out long enough that on back I can nab BF and Vamp, skipping double Doran's entirely if I can manage it. I think a topic of 45 AD + 10% lifesteal vs. 20 AD, 160 HP, 16% lifesteal is a bit more interesting despite the relatively large gold disparity between the two.

Edit: Ashe has a great level one compared to who? Graves? No. Ezreal? No. Corki? No. Caitlyn? No.


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Gster

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Sassycat View Post
1. I know that boots is the best choice but i kinda don't care when i do 3/4s someone's health as opposed to half with the 10 ad difference, and because Ashe's level one is amazing and im building brut i prefer the +50 hp over the 6 hp per hit.
2. Not if you have an advantage, which is the only thing that makes this viable.
3. Yes i am. If you have the advantage your main priority is locking down targets because you automatically have more damage than they do.
4. Yeah i meant great level one. My bad.

I don't want to jungle. I want to AD.
points 1,2,3 are if you have the advantage. What if you don't have the advantage?

1. Nuking 3/4s someone health is nothing when they have 2 or 3 more pots then you.
Where are you getting the "+50 hp" from?
V.S.ing an AD carry with a boot while you don't have one will allow the other play to get
free harass off you. (This is especially true with Caitlyn)

2. Using a build base on whether you get the advantage or not isn't a good idea. Too many
variables are involved.

3. Lock down target? To do that with a long sword would usually mean you losing cs for
harass. Also playing offensively with a long sword is not recommended because of your low MS. Their jungler will eventually gank and you will have a low chance of escaping without using Flash or Ghost.


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General Sassycat

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gster View Post
points 1,2,3 are if you have the advantage. What if you don't have the advantage?

1. Nuking 3/4s someone health is nothing when they have 2 or 3 more pots then you.
Where are you getting the "+50 hp" from?
V.S.ing an AD carry with a boot while you don't have one will allow the other play to get
free harass off you. (This is especially true with Caitlyn)

2. Using a build base on whether you get the advantage or not isn't a good idea. Too many
variables are involved.

3. Lock down target? To do that with a long sword would usually mean you losing cs for
harass. Also playing offensively with a long sword is not recommended because of your low MS. Their jungler will eventually gank and you will have a low chance of escaping without using Flash or Ghost.
1. It's everything when you have something like a taric and you've already ignited them. I meant 70hp and i was counting the pot as hp. They generally don't harrass after i've hit them so hard.
2. This is true.
3. I don't usually fight that early. I crit/volley and hopefully kill them and then get enough gold to buy boots and some more pots and hopefully another longsword. Also unless the jungler has a leap i can usually land a volley on the jungler before he gets in range of me and walk out while he deals with rank 5 q. (This can also work on someone who doesn't have a lock on jump if i can dodge it.)

And to Magus Crow, I don't care about sustain if i can blow them up


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

11-03-2012

1. That's INSANELY situational. You are depending on a specific support and charging your passive. What are you going to do if they just decide to play passive or you dont get a Taric / Blitz / Leona? What if both? Are you really going to sit there and let them out CS you hard and out experience you in the long run just for a possible chance at getting that off?

3. Again... hugely situational and largely dependant on match up I would think. What are you going to do with say a full stacked Graves who is going to respond with aa->dash->q->aa? What do you do if a minion blocks your volley shot?

So you are saying you can deal with what? One or two specific junglers? Outside of Mundo and Skarner no one comes to mind that doesnt have a gap closer of some sort or another.

Edit: Add Cho'Gath and Alistar to the no gap closer junglers though Cho is probably leading with a rupture for a ranged CC gap close method.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Are you finding bottom lane champions regularly rushing armor? I mean, if you're against a Taric support who is giving an armor passive, that's one thing. But... I'd rather have 45 AD out of a BF sword than 25 AD and 15 armor pen out of the Brutalizer.

When you get into mid and late game and start running into armored champs, why would you want 15 armor pen over 40% armor pen from Last Whisper?


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