Oh my, that new Blackfire Torch

First Riot Post
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Sessamo

Senior Member

11-02-2012

This item looks absolutely amazing.
Beta testing is fun <3


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Dunal

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Remove the % Health passive (and cost a bit) and I could see it being balanced on Rift.

Sejuani would love this item. Health/CDR/Mpen combo is a niche yet to be filled. Hope that combination for an item appears on Rift for S3.


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IonianIrelia

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I'm actually quite afraid it'll be too strong on Singed and Amumu. The charge system was designed specifically so that it wouldn't last forever on champs like that. We'll see how it turns out; this is sort of the "foundation" for several iterations to come.
I'd actually be watching Cassiopeia, seem like she or Soraka would be able to stack it forever.


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Lint Wizard

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by netkitten View Post
you always could do that just stacking sorc boots. actually you could get 100+40% not counting runes and masteries :P
I was counting my runes + masteries, but I did not know that you could stack sorc shoes for penetration. I'm not sure if it's worth it, but you still blew my mind!


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IS131c7cb285e774

Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I'm actually quite afraid it'll be too strong on Singed and Amumu. The charge system was designed specifically so that it wouldn't last forever on champs like that. We'll see how it turns out; this is sort of the "foundation" for several iterations to come.
Why wouldn't you add a condition to DoT spells where it reduces the passive's effect by a certain amount (to 25% of the normal value for example)?

We've this kind of restrains on AoE spellvamp to avoid abusive situations, so I find this an appropriate solution for this particular case.


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Krosan

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophioneus View Post
Why wouldn't you add a condition to DoT spells where it reduces the passive's effect by a certain amount (by 25% for example)?

We've this kind of restrains on AoE spellvamp to avoid abusive situations, so I find this an appropriate solution for this particular case.
Current blackfire already does this, and what we're seeing pretty much indicates that if the item is "good" on actual casters, Singed and Amumu can run utterly wild with it. Blackfire atm is actually too weak for casters (and mathematically not really a great buy for Singed) but that's the effect we're seeing.

Current Blackfire is terrible on AoE casters; Karthus, Ziggs, Xerath and such all may as well pass it up completely. And the map, and the game in general, aren't super kind to single-target casters right now.

The charges version of Blackfire potentially fixes those problems. Since the total damage it can deal is capped by its charges, it doesn't overly reward champions who can stay in forever like Singed can. It does, however, make it way better on AoE casters!

The champions I'm currently worried about for the charges version, though, are champions like Brand and Cass. Brand's passive and Cass's DoT skillset mean that even taking a minor hit will mean having their Blackfire Torch fry off a good 8-10% of your health.

If TT was a heavily lane-centric game like SR I'd be more worried about that. A Brand with a Blackfire on SR would, potentially, annihilate every lane ever without really trying. On Twisted Treeline I'm a bit less panicky and more interested in what Nome can pull off here.

(On the other hand, Blackfire's damage is lower than his passive's, so I may be wrong here...)


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Taiyodori

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbx View Post
1 charge every second.

Do damage every second.

Infinite charges..

Don't you guys think you should make it 1 charge every 3-4 seconds or something? Maybe even 5.
Think of it like this: If you deal AoE-dmg to 3 champions, you're "burning" 3 charges each second, so they'll eventually run out.
However, I agree that this item description needs clarification. Just telling something about charges make it sound like you stack the effect on the enemy champion, though it rather is some king of ammo-system, am I right?

Also, 5% of max health is not too much. Compare it to Madred's Bloodrazor (which no one considers op):
Madreds: 4% of max health each hit. Let's say you have an AS of 1.5, so you deal additionally 6% of max HP each second as Autoattacker, that is, if you manage to constantly hit your target.
BFT: 5% of max health over 3 seconds. --> 1.66% of max HP each second. Sounds quite neglectible to me, even if you manage to constantly have the DoT working...


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Piggie B

Senior Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiyodori View Post
Think of it like this: If you deal AoE-dmg to 3 champions, you're "burning" 3 charges each second, so they'll eventually run out.
However, I agree that this item description needs clarification. Just telling something about charges make it sound like you stack the effect on the enemy champion, though it rather is some king of ammo-system, am I right?

Also, 5% of max health is not too much. Compare it to Madred's Bloodrazor (which no one considers op):
Madreds: 4% of max health each hit. Let's say you have an AS of 1.5, so you deal additionally 6% of max HP each second as Autoattacker, that is, if you manage to constantly hit your target.
BFT: 5% of max health over 3 seconds. --> 1.66% of max HP each second. Sounds quite neglectible to me, even if you manage to constantly have the DoT working...

The difference is that Madreds costs 3800g while Blackfire Torch costs 2890g, and 1.5 Attack Speed would also require additional items beyond the Madreds. Also Madreds is considered OP on TT, otherwise it would be purchasable there :P


You have to compare it to the Blade of the Ruined King, which deals 4% of the target's CURRENT health, which averages to (approximately) 2% of their max health per attack over the course of a fight (assuming that your target spends half of the time above 50% hp and half of it below 50%), which - for 2825 gold - with no additional items, at Level 18, on an AD Carry (who each have approximately 1.0 attack speed at 18), is 2% health per second. Personally, I think that the Blade of the Ruined King is a little bit overpowered, but the new Torch is pretty close to it.


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NinetyNineTails

Member

11-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I'm actually quite afraid it'll be too strong on Singed and Amumu. The charge system was designed specifically so that it wouldn't last forever on champs like that. We'll see how it turns out; this is sort of the "foundation" for several iterations to come.
Oh, sweet Raptor Jesus. Like Singed's poison trail doesn't already do enough damage? And based on %hp? I'd never play anybody else.


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mastersmash

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Member

11-03-2012

No mana on it anymore?


GIVE TO AKALI NOW!!!!